I love you!

The three words ‘I love you’ are meant to be special, intimate. To the sociopath ‘I love you’ means something entirely different.

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When you first meet the sociopath, he spends a lot of time, listening, reflecting, mirroring.

  • Listening to what you say (to discover what your needs and wants are)
  • Reflecting (Offering you back what you need and want)
  • Mirroring (mirroring your body language, repeating back to you what you are saying, ‘active’ listening skills)

Love is a really important game to the sociopath in dating. Without love the sociopath loses their power.

A sociopath will constantly say ‘I love you’….. what this actually means is ‘do you love me’…. he is constantly checking whether you love him. He needs you to love him, as when you do, you are rendered ‘weak’

You are fooled into thinking this is a genuine love connection. The sociopath mirrors all of the reactions that people do when they are genuinely in love.

  • Wants to spend all of their time with you
  • Appears interested in you and your interests
  • Appears to share similar interests, goals, and morals
  • Tells you constantly that they love you
  • Showers you with attention and flattery
  • Fakes that they will help you to fulfil your dreams
  • Is very helpful and useful

With this belief that you have met someone who seems so perfect for you, you feel safe to let down your guard, and fall subsequently in love with the sociopath.

If you have been in a relationship with a sociopath, you will notice that they constantly say ‘I love you’, this leads you to feel some sense of responsibility for the sociopath, and that you should love them back. This is part of the manipulation and control.

The sociopath constantly checks what you are feeling about them, and if you are in love with them. When you are in love, you are rendered ‘weak’. This is in reality how the sociopath sees you.

There is a saying ‘crazy in love’ and being in love, can be a temporary form of ‘madness’ where we can lose ourselves in the moment of ‘love’.

Love is  important to most humans, especially women. We all have the need to love, and to be loved.

The sociopath abuses this. This is what can leave victims feeling both confused, and lacking in belief that the person they are in love with is actually a sociopath after all your partner was so:

  • ‘Loving and caring’
  • Helpful
  • Focused on you (giving you the illusion that they were as into you as you were them’
  • Moralistic

The person behind the mask is rarely seen. If you imagine the Wizard of Oz….. you are lured in and left spell bound by what you see in front of the curtain….. but when Dorothy pulled back the curtain, she saw a very different person operating the machine.

This is exactly what the sociopath does. He uses LOVE and fakes love, to

  • Get you to fall in love
  • So that (if you are in love) you feel a responsibility for him, and are weak
  • Manipulate you

Because the sociopath has no conscience, he doesn’t care whether this causes you pain. The sociopath thrives to

  • Be in control
  • To win

Duping others, conning, and winning, obtaining what he wants by deception can give the ultimate high (see also sociopath’s dupers delight and the joy of conning someone). They suffer from boredom, and are not restricted by either

  • Moral compass, responsibility for anyone else
  • Emotions and feelings for anyone else except themselves

Whilst you are going headlong into the relationship with the sociopath, losing your head and falling in love, the sociopath will fake that he is in love. He will fake this so very well, that it will feel like a soul mate connection.

Why victims stay in the relationship with the sociopath

The reason why victims stay with the sociopath, is because of the poker effect. Once the mask begins to slip, the victim has fallen in love with the ‘illusion’ that the sociopath has sold to the victim. Everybody needs ‘closure’ but there can be no closure with the sociopath. You are in love with simply an illusion. The sociopath will give you back niceness, kindness, and fake love again, to lengthen his time with you. This is simply because the sociopath does not want to lose source for supply. This is all that you are to the sociopath, ‘a source for supply’.

This reminds me of the fairy tale of The Emperors New Clothes, where the Emperor is conned that his invisible clothes are made from silk and gold. He walks proudly in his new outfit, despite that he had doubts, he did not listen to himself. Allowed himself to listen to the swindlers, rather than his own intuition, his pride did not want to see the truth, until a child shouts from the crowd ‘that man is not wearing any clothes’

We are too often deluded in the search for love. We do not want it to be true, that we have met someone who has used us, and conned us, and that we were foolish to believe the lies that were told to us. That the lies opened our hearts, and we willingly let somebody use and abuse us. That nothing was true.

We do not want to appear foolish. We want what we have believed to be the truth. The sociopath can get further ‘dupers delight’, if the truth is uncovered, and he manages to convince you that he does actually ‘love you’, and you then stay for an extended period of time.

A sociopath cannot love in the traditional way that you are sold LOVE.  Love to the sociopath means three things:

  • Control
  • Ownership
  • Source for supply

The sociopath would never admit this to you. It can be so hurtful, that you do not want to admit this truth to yourself. The sociopath, when the truth starts to be uncovered, will continue to sell you the lie, and even go to further lengths to prove that his lies are true.

Your weakness, is not only that you are in love (which is why the sociopath constantly checks that you are in love with them), but also pride. Once you know the truth, and understand and accept this, that it is NOT you. That what you experienced was not real. You had simply been played as part of the biggest illusion on earth, you can start to let go.

To let go, you need to accept the truth, to establish no contact. To put into place a recovery plan.

See also http://datingasociopath.com/2013/03/15/how-to-recover-from-dating-a-sociopath/

and http://datingasociopath.com/2013/03/15/sociopath-and-establishing-no-contact/

The sociopath does not and cannot experience love. Unless love to you, means ownership and control?

Ownership and control, is sadly, not love.

Words copyright © datingasociopath.com 2013

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191 thoughts on “I love you!”

  1. .I believe that I may be or may have been in a relationship with a sociopath. I have been unhappy since sophomore year in high school and am now going to be 22. I feel unwanted or not good enough to or for anyone around me or in my life. That tells me thatsomething is wrong, im only 22. But the thing is, im not sure whats wrong.

    1. Study your relationship with your parents, particularly your relationship with the parent of the sex opposite yours. That can tell you a lot. If you can find a good counselor that can be a life changer. Be sure you find a good one and one you are comfortable with. Lay people cannot always know who is good and who isn’t so ask around. The counselor should leave you feeling validated even while confronting you. The relationship should not be abrasive or leave you feeling diminished.

  2. I think that this is a very inaccurate description of what dating a sociopath is like. Sociopaths can, in fact, experience love. It is different for everyone and to write about such a stigmatized disorder in this way is harmful.

      1. I fell I love with someone that displays all the symptoms of sociopathic behavior. I agree that everyone is not the same I just know that caring for someone that hurts you day in day out is not healthy. though I still adore her she is no longer part of my life. it was her choice to tell me she wanted to marry me on a Sunday and then have someone else in her bed by Tuesday (same week). her lack of feelings other than for herself and the constant aggressiveness to the relationship kept me totally confused. I am still so in love with her and I wish there was something I could do to change things but I have realized that only God, and then maybe not. I really hope that all of us that have at one point become victims of these types know that it is not us and to an extent it is not even them it is an illness. sincerely may God help us all because it sure hurts like there is no tomorrow to loose some one you love. tnks.

      2. Exactly. You’re right positivagirl, there is no debate. Sociopaths are always whining about how “unfair” it is that they are “stigmatized.” Boo hoo cry a river. I have NO sympathy for someone who will lie, steal, cheat, and screw you over in a heartbeat without blinking an eye. Please don’t feel the need to defend yourself to these idiots.

    1. I agree. I’m a diagnosed sociopath, and I found this article rather offensive. I have a family that I love dearly, honeslty – dear author, find my “source of supply” with them?

      My bet your model will “True-Scot’s” fallacy before you can find an explanation.

      1. What is a true Scots fallacy?

        Do you think that perhaps this is because we disagree on what ‘love’ actually is? I know a few sociopaths have complained about this post, so I am open to debate about it. It isn’t always what you do when the relationship is ongoing, its the destruction that you can cause if the person should choose to leave you – without you wanting that…would you agree?

      2. Who cares if he agrees, if he’s *truly* a sociopath he is a predator and we don’t really need to ask his opinion. As we know from all of your articles, any info we give him he will just use against us and twist our words.

    2. Your classic sociopath does not feel love. He/she may feel desire or need but not love. They are unable to make a connection with another person. A sociopath does not know what love is and they generally feel empty. This emptiness is painful and leads to all sorts of dysfunctional behavior as they attempt to feel. In the worst cases you get your Bundys who go to extreme lengths to feel something. If a sociopath feels love he/she is not a sociopath.

      1. Perhaps they dont feel “love” the same way.. but a sociopath is capable of valuing relationships. My best friend is a sociopath. While he is manipulative by nature he rarely ever hurts people on purpose. He spends everyday studying human emotions – so that he can be more careful about hurting people around him. On the rare occasion he has hurt me – hes geniunely felt bad about it. (as best as his disorder allows) which is to say, he makes solid efforts to prevent it from occuring again. To say they are all “predators without regard for others” is simply wrong.
        He still cares about his friends, about his girlfriend and his family. Just He “loves” in a different way. But He would defend those he ‘loves’ as much as any “normal” person would..

    3. I agree. Being a sociopath myself, well I actually hate lonelieness very very much. What do I gain from dating people and making them fall in love with me? I gain love. I hate being alone and I most always told those ive dated of my problem / Abilities before dating them so theyd know exactly what they were dealing with. It is true that i will never understand your guys’ type of love but i do experience love… Its just different than your guys, in that its almost like the way a child loves their mother. Its very parasitic but i am aware that my brain is not functioning properly so i try my hardest to give back in return. Hope the perspective of a real sociopath helps you understand how some of us work. Though, that doesnt mean go out and trust every sociopath with say… Your bank account info. Not all of us know we arent normal…. Or are willing to accept it, anyway.

      1. I was in lie with an sociopath for 2 yearconvincing,her cheating 2 times. Once with My best Friend in the next room when i was takng a nap. This was 6month into our relationship. Foolishly i chose to believe her over my best friend of 20years…over someone I knew for 6months. I was heads over heel for her. She said my friend led her on and I believe her. Everything was fine for awhile after I forgave her.
        Fastfoward to 6month later. One time we had a huge argument and she threw the phone I brought her toward me..she left and thought it was broken, but yet she didn’t realize it wasdidn’t. But sheonly still working but it was logged in on to her face book account…only did I realized she was flirting with handful of guys and inviting them over…I don’t need to go in to details about that…during the next three days I was seeing her talking dirty to multiple guys…I was devastated… Eventually I confronted her with the proof and she finally broke down and admitted she was diagnosed as class a sociopath…she begged for forgiveness telling me sob story about her dysfunctional childhood…and like a blind man in love gave her a last chance.
        She then offer me her fbook password and told me i can monitor it and only did i realized she had unbelievable amount of admirers or groupies if u want to called it..she got three different guys believe she had a imaginary baby with each and one of them after a random previous encounters which was before i had met her, so i gave her the benefit of the doubt and still forgave her.
        Her story to these unknownly guys were so convincing it was so crazy, they brought it…anyhow she ceased contact with them…she had made so many internet friends fall in love with her that it was unbelievable…but she told me, your the only person that knows who iam. And that she will change for me. She told me everything you would need to know about a sociopath. How she couldn’t control herself from surfing on craiglist sexual encounter ads..how she would respond to those ads and only tease those gullible guys and make them fall in love with her, sometimes meeting them, most she didnt. But she told me she get a thrill and satisfication controlling these strangers heart and played with them….she shared everything to me, how she think …how easily bored she would get…I didn’t know what a sociopath was at the time. But after she told me I went online and did a research and it was scary…she fits the description to the t…
        But yet I still gave her a chance. Why? Maybe I was so intrigued… I thought I might be the first person to change a sociopath… Lying to myself she admitted to me, so maybe a sociopath finally let guard down because she truly loved me? She was a mirror of me. She made me feel so good about myself…she molded herself to whatever emotional needs I have. She says I love you at the perfect
        Time at the right moment each and everyday when we are together. I loved her to death. I never thought I can love someone so deep. She made me feel so good about myself that I overlooked this again…but I told her if I ever catch u again its over for sure.
        Who am I kidding…1year later, which was two days ago. I caught her again…red handed….theyre was so much inconsistency even before this day which she destroyed my heart again. But this is the third strike….i need to be strong. I have to be. That is why i pass thru this blog and decide to share my story. I need support to get away from this unhealthy emotional cycle of relationship…i blocked her number, but im still scared she will call me thru private and yet i will succumb to her powers….god help me. I know i can get out of this relationship or is it illusion…alive. Wish me luck everyone.

    4. This comment is true, as a sociopath myself I can experience love. Although it rarely has ever happened being that I have only ever once in my entire life loved someone. Although the part about us not viewing love the same way is probably right, this post is very biased and based on the assumption that we don’t give a crap about anyone. Which is true to a certain extent, we only care for a select group of people and this isn’t necessarily our choice, not that I think there is anything wrong with that.

  3. Which do you believe; some says they love you then punches you (a metaphor for any action that hurts you), they say they love you then punches you again. Which should you believe the fist or the words and how many times does it take before you realize that actions speaks louder than words. Believe me, it is not healthy to have someone in your life like that and you can not help them, no matter who they are or how you feel about them, you can only help yourself to a better life and survive.

    1. Yes exactly, that’s the sad part. Positivagirl is pretty strong, but you can even see it in some of her posts. She, like most of us, is willing to “debate” or give these morons the “benefit of the doubt.” The truth is the truth, there is nothing to debate about. If someone is fucking you over again and again and again, their words are meaningless.

      1. @Annoyed
        Your name rings true to your overly subjective, emotional and closed minded comments.
        You’ve clearly been hurt. Sure, be angry at whoever has hurt you. Doesn’t mean all sociopaths are ‘morons’, ‘idiots’,or bad people. I’m not trying to get you to sympathise with me or some crap, but just to be able to see what you’re doing right now is the exact same as racism, sexism, and all those other kinds of discrimination. Sociopaths have almost the exact same mind as you, so don’t act like you’re so high and mighty.

      2. @Lyss sorry, I think your full of shit. Moron is probably a bad term since sociopaths are highly intelligent…I didn’t mean it in the literal way. And I do not see pointing out the TRUTH of how someone lies, cheats, steals, cons, manipulates, gaslights, etc as discrimination. It’s a fact.

      3. @Annoyed
        Lol, don’t say sorry then follow it with that.
        Who said all sociopaths lie, manipulate, cheat, steals and cons? You?

      4. I am not going to get involved with this one, I think that you are both right. You both see things from your own perspective.

        Annoyed is right, as victims/survivors experiences (esp if they are on this site) are nothing but negative. Lifes that have been turned upside down and destroyed.

        Lyss is right, in that there are varying degrees of sociopathy – while I haven’t witnessed actual change (people don’t change) I have witnessed behaviour management which saw improvements in behaviour. However that said – that same person did lie, cheat, manipulate, control, steal, con etc…. so….

      5. I am angry, I have a right to be. As does everyone else who has been affected by the sociopaths horrific behavior. And being “open minded” is what got me into this situation in the first place. So now I have stronger opinions ;)

        I just needed to let of steam, and I think that’s perfectly normal and healthy. At the same time, I have to remind myself not to focus all of my energy on the outside. It truly is about going inward.

      6. @Lyss…no, not me. This site. A million other sites. The DSM. The very definition of a sociopath is a pathological liar. A con artist. Damnit I let you suck me into this argument. SEE FOLKS. This is what happens lol.

      7. I agree with you too Annoyed.

        I see it from both sides. Or at least, I try to. I also struggle to see the ‘victim’ as the sociopath. Or even why they would want to play that role. Nobody is picking on them, merely pointing out the facts, based upon their own experiences, and how those experiences felt to be in them.

        But as sociopaths struggle to see if from anyone else’s point of view than their own…. this is a difficult concept to get across.

      8. @Annoyed
        So if you fell in love with someone, sociopath or not, and it didn’t end well does that mean you’ll never love again? No, so don’t be ridiculous.
        You have a right to be angry, just not at every sociopath alive.
        You’re right in the fact that you need to let off steam inwardly, not outwardly.

        @positivagirl
        You’re on the right track, aside from the fact that it’s not degrees of sociopathy, because every sociopath alive has absolutely no empathy, none, naught. It’s just how that manifests. How you control it or how it comes out in you doesn’t change how much of a sociopath you are. A serial killer and rapist sociopath has the exact same lack of empathy than an ordinary every day one.

      9. Yes, but the ability for –

        1. Self control
        2. Behaviour management
        3. Ability to have insight into behaviour
        4. Desire/need want to (behave)

        Is, I am sure you would agree, different for every sociopath. While the brain cannot be changed – how you manage what is in your brain is really up to you. Yes, sure, there will be the rages, the control will still be there. But whether you choose to live your life duping and conning every single day – thriving off your lack of conscience, or whether you choose to try to keep a lid on it, and control yourself, is really up to you.

        This is what i meant by varying degrees.

        I do also think that there are varying degrees – while there is a lack of conscience, some – have sociopathic traits (at the mild end) and others have literally no conscience at all. (I have witnessed this).

      10. @Annoyed
        Now you’re out rightly wrong. The ONLY trait every sociopath has in common is the lack of empathy. As I said in my last comment, it manifests in all different ways.

      11. Or is lack of conscience same as lack of empathy (or similar realms)? I have both a conscience (I feel bad if I hurt someone) and empathy – I feel sorrow if someone is hurting.

        So, on the other side, I struggle to understand how life must be without this.

        What I always found fascinating is how sociopaths can ‘feign’ to have more empathy than anyone on the planet.

        Truthfully most people don’t walk around being ‘empathetic’ every day. Not in their day to day lives. If you did, you would quickly be drained, you can’t take on everyone’s problems.

        But – to NOT feel…. I just think, surely that is an empty life. As I have said before the only time that I could identify with it, is after a significant trauma, I did lose empathy. I was very focused on myself and my own inner world. Something happened in my brain. I switched off, it was like being on the outside looking in.

        It wasn’t very nice. Like living life without music or full colour (metaphorically speaking. – but again, this was trauma related. I am not normally like that.

        What I found fascinating from this though – was how do sociopaths ‘fake’ it all the time, isn’t this tiring and exhausting? Pretending all the time?

      12. @positivagirl
        It’s less up to us to choose how we act than you might think. Until you experience rage from the other side, I guess you’ll never understand that. People say, as a joke, ‘I’m banging my head on the desk right now’ when they’re trying to get their point across and it’s not working. I have literally done that in a rage, to the point that I was bleeding and bruised, because that, at the time, was the only way to get myself to bite my lip and not say anything til I cooled off.
        What do you define as conscience, first of all?

      13. Conscience to me…..is I guess the voice from my soul.

        That sounds deep right? That is because it is. My conscience is like the boundaries of life, that prevent me from doing something to not hurt someone else. If I were to do something that did hurt someone, it would be on my conscience, so… I would think about it a lot, i would feel bad. I would want to put the situation right and wouldn’t be able to rest or feel peace in myself until I had.

        Conscience is that inner voice, that stops me from doing things – like that warning voice. Like a barrier and a line that must not be crossed.

        I don’t know where it comes from. But i do know that if I were to do something bad – it would make me feel bad. Its about thinking of someone else’s needs and not only your own.

        What is conscience?

        For me, conscience is my soul.

      14. @positivagirl
        See, I was under the impression conscience was merely knowing right from wrong, and empathy was the feeling you get from it, plus the ability to feel sorrow for someone else. Let’s work by your definitions, it would seem simpler.
        I would think it would feel a lot more empty if
        -You had suddenly lost the empathy, and so you would be contrasting to what it used to be like. You must remember that a sociopath has been without it their whole lives, their brains have developed without it, they are just as whole as a ‘normal’ person.
        -You hadn’t lost a conscience as well. I’d assume if you had your conscience but no empathy, it would indeed feel as if you’d been cut off. Without a conscience, and you just don’t give a crap.

        It is terribly exhausting, which is why I have outlets, like this site, where I don’t need to fake caring for anyone, because no one cares for me, and that’s how I like it. It’s also why I’m extremely asocial, because I’m also extremely introverted, meaning I get my energy from being alone and being with people exhausts me. Being with people AND having to fake around those people exhausts me so much, I’d rather isolate myself completely and never speak to anyone ever again.
        More extroverted sociopaths, however, I assume it is a fairly balanced equation. Energy is taken away from faking, but energy is given back from being with people.

      15. Hmm…. I think its about more than just knowing right from wrong.

        Surely you do know right from wrong? Otherwise if you wanted a shit in the street you would? …. I don’t think even sociopaths do this… its just ‘wrong’. Its about a moral compass.

        Yes, absolutely I did notice it. At the time I had returned to work, with homeless people. I had been in that job for 7 years when I returned. It was pretty distressing to feel nothing, but have to fake it. I was just frozen in shock. I can see your point though, if I never had it, I wouldn’t have had anything to compare it to.

        No, I don’t think that I lost my conscience. It is difficult to remember, I do remember the losing empathy as I needed it for my work, and it made my work difficult at that time. So yeah… I did care, and it hurt me too at the time – then there was judgement of others who didn’t understand that I had changed, and why. That was difficult. As I didn’t know how to be the same as everyone else – I was traumatised and felt massively different. I had never felt like that in my life, it went on for a long time and a lot of years – and to be honest it was a blessing when a sociopath came into my life, as he just got me, without that much judgement really (good thing about sociopaths 1. they can forgive/forget and move on quite quickly 2. They can accept people for who they are – they can take advantages of weaknesses…. but – as there is lack of emotion – they can take people at face value.

        I think possibly these experiences, are why i see things differently? I am not sure?

        I went on this journey with him, back in 2012, I remember that he wanted to talk to people about it, but found that there were little options. 1. sociopathworld where they all laughed or ripped him apart 2. everywhere else would be villified. I do know that he genuinely wanted to learn and to understand.

        So, this is why I do see both sides of the argument. I see the victim/survivors side, as it destroyed my world. I also see the sociopaths side, as I did watch him trying his best to be a better person (even if only for his own benefit) – of course.

      16. @Lyss, now I feel like you’re doing exactly what you accused me of. How ironic. The ONLY trait sociopaths have in common is lack of empathy? According to who? You? So you speak for ALL sociopaths?

        Anyway, this is exactly why no contact is so important. It’s a never ending viscous cycle. A battle of the egos. Which is why you and other sociopaths come to this site, because you all get high off us feeding into the bs. Someone else in the comments below also mentioned sociopaths/psychopaths loves these sites.

        I think it all goes back taking responsibility for ourselves…something I have never seen a sociopath authentically do. It’s something I have to constantly remind myself of too…our society is a victim society, no matter what side of the fence you’re on (“good” or “bad”).

        I appreciate this reminder of no matter how angry I am, it’s still important that I take the focus off of others and redirect inward. The world isn’t happening “to us” it’s happening from us.

      17. @positivagirl
        I would say that would be what changed your opinion.
        However, may I inquire, your conversation to John Orona? (Not going to say conversation with, as it was mostly people speaking at him as if he wasn’t human) You shut him down quite quickly, yet when I brought up similar points a few months back you were quite the opposite. What happened there?

      18. I think though if I recall (not in defence, more explaination) – the thing with John was right on the anniversary of my daughters death, and I was going through a difficult legal case, at the time.

        That is why i hadn’t been around too much, until now, I needed to take some time off.

        I think the legal case is at an end, so I can focus back again on this blog. Without going through the entire thread to read all of his comments…. off of the top of my head, I don’t think I believed what he said.

      19. Having these conversations are very insightful, but I know it’s a very slippery slope. In my situation, I have had many insightful conversations with guys I’ve dated about them being sociopaths. Next thing I know I’m in love with them lol. This is when I realized it was ME who was lying to myself. Denial is a powerful force.

        I know other people had a different experience, where they had no idea, and it was the perfect fantasy partner with no signs. I still think somewhere deep down you just KNOW. Maybe mine were just low functioning?

      20. Do you know, the level of deception, I really DIDN’T it was SO well hidden.

        YES there were red flags, but he went to GREAT lengths to cover for those. I mean really elaborate lengths to cover. More elaborate than you could possibly think.

        I think I challenged him at 2 months, this is when the faking potential death and cancer came in (for another 2 months) – then after this the lies started to unravel (now at 4 months) fast… I did take him back for another 2 months. Not wanting to believe that this was real, and desperately wanting the perfection that was sold to me, to be real. Of course, the next 2 months was the same.

        I do still know this person. I should write what happened next, as this blog started around 6/7 months after the lies and the deception came out, the following 6/7 months were hell. Stalking harassment, threats intimidation – absolute hell…. then I began this blog… and did 6 months of no contact.

      21. No, the level of deception was such, I don’t think anybody would know. You just couldn’t. Fake calls were in front of me, by setting his alarm on his phone to ring.

        He faked jobs, by leaving early in the morning to go to ‘work’ (he was in a different city) – would sit in the library all day.

        The faked cancer almost death – was so elaborate, and backed with dramatic calls with tears, devastation all in front of my face – this went on for months.

        It was SO elaborate – no…. I don’t think anybody would have suspected that it wasn’t true.

      22. @Positivagirl…wow that’s crazy. I’ve heard that from a lot of people…they really had no idea. I’ve experienced the more low functioning types who don’t hide it as well. Well, they hid it well briefly actually. Just not for very long.

      23. I think I did guess we’ll I know I did. I wrote a diary and was accurate. The problem was he was so deceptive and went to such extraordinary lengths to display he was telling the truth I felt more crazy not believing him. It was a complete mask of illusion and deception. Even today I am stunned it happened. They are (should they choose to be) absolute masters of deception.

      24. True actions speak louder then words… but i dont think anything is louder then your prejudice.

        perhaps our sense of ‘love’ is impossible for them, but that dosnt mean they dont have emotions of their own. My best friend is one. tho he has to think about it first, he understands emotions, and he still cares about the people who are close to him. He defends, helps and cares about his friends and family to the same degree you or i would. Its just a different emotion for him. not one you or i would ever understand. But in all the years ive known him.. he is NOT a “predator” he does care about hurting his friends. he might not care about you or 99% of the population. but His friends, family – he wouldnt ever intentionally hurt them.
        So maybe meet some of them before you go accusing them all of being monsters

      25. Your friend sounds like a disempathetic sociopath. Or either that your friend has you deluded too, that he actually cares about you. Truth is, he cares about what is beneficial to him, so perhaps you are beneficial to him. Try moving away from him, and you would see a different side.

    2. @Annoyed
      Well, I sure can speak more than people who claim to ‘study’ them.
      I don’t take back what I said. All sociopaths lack empathy/a conscience, following positivagirl’s definitions. However, some may not be compulsive liars, some might not lie at all. Some might not have a big ego at all. Some have big ego’s in some ways, but in other ways they feel crap about themselves. Yes, yes I do speak for all sociopaths. There is no such thing as a sociopathic trait. Only cause and effect from not having empathy.

      I don’t get high feeding into bullshit. I come here to get answers for my questions (granted, half the time these aren’t even answered without someone screaming YOU’RE A DEMON). Narcissistic sociopaths may enjoy sites like these. I do not, I merely attempt to get people to stop being so closd minded; a futile goal, but nonetheless, I am stubborn.

      I had this same point with another on this site. Just because you’ve never seen it happen, doesn’t mean it doesn’t. Just means you haven’t seen much.
      What do you define as good and bad?

      Then just remove your emotions. You’re a fool if you fall in love with them AFTER knowing everything about them, then complaining about it.
      There are always signs, but many people don’t even ‘just KNOW’, until they’ve gone and gotten themselves hurt.
      You’d be one of those people who believe NOTHING good can come out of a relationship with a sociopath, wouldn’t you?

      1. I like that. ‘No such thing as a sociopathic trait’ only causes from a lack of empathy…. But hang on aren’t those causes and effect isn’t the behaviour caused by having no empathy a sociopathic trait?

      2. @positivagirl
        But each sociopath (just like each ‘normal’ person) is different. So by saying a sociopathic trait is a grandiose sense of self worth, you’re saying to be a sociopath, you must have a grandiose sense of self worth. This is not the case. I for one, suffer from body dysmorphic disorder. Clearly, I do not think highly of myself. I was also severely abused a few years ago, and convinced myself I deserved it, and still do to this day; I’d be fine if I was abused by the same person again, because I know I’m worth nothing more than being an anger outlet for someone.
        As we’ve spoken about before, I also have social anxiety. That’s not a sociopathic trait. In fact, that’s the opposite. Yet I still don’t feel empathy, or have a conscience. It’s all dependent on the person, as to how it manifests.

      3. Lots of people lack empathy – but aren’t sociopaths.

        Sociopaths do have those traits, and those traits are common. Which is why I can write this site, and if I couldn’t be here, others can offer advice as the behaviour traits are pretty much identical.

      4. @positivagirl
        If you’re honestly questioning that after the conversations we’ve had about me torturing animals, how I treat people, so on and so forth…
        I have but I haven’t. I was forced into the public health system at the age of (almost) 16, as my mother was extremely concerned about me. They were not allowed to diagnose someone than young, but they told me something along the lines of ‘your father is definitely sociopathic, and we’ve come to the conclusion you’ve inherited his sadism.’ The looks they gave me when I told them some of the things in my head, oh the looks.

        Hah, I laugh at these manuals and these writings about what a sociopath is. Psychologists think they’ve got sociopaths all worked out. I watched a Dr Phil episode talking to M.E. Thomas not too long ago. She said something (forgive me for not remembering exactly what) and he replied with ‘but that’s not a sociopath trait’. Just like so many others, Mr Phil has read from a textbook what people ASSUME sociopaths to be from the little information they can gather, and has memorised it, and then continues to pretend he knows all. People can’t gather correct information on sociopaths even if they wanted to, because the only ones they can see so obviously are the low functioning ones, the ones that may display those traits, because they’re fools. And now, because they gathered that information from the low functioning ones, they refute any information from the high functioning ones. The psychology world has figuratively shoved itself into a box, never to actually understand, because they can’t.

      5. Why do you think that people on a site who are in healing/recovery and hurting would want to read about you hurting animals?

        Personally – it makes my stomach churn. I wonder how you can be so bold as to write that.

        I am sorry but sociopaths DO follow similar traits. iF you think that you are one then you must think you are by the list outlined in the DSM manual? Surely?

      6. I do however, also agree with you about definitions and terms outlined by professionals, as they only witness what they are told. Victims and survivors all have the same story to tell, only the details are different.

      7. @positivagirl
        Let me give you an example.
        Tourettes. Some people with tourettes have verbal tics, others have physical, and some have both. Doesn’t mean one has tourettes and one doesn’t.

      8. @Lyss actually no…I DO believe a lot of good can come out of a relationship with a sociopath. There ya go again, claiming I’m making assumptions about you when you did the exact same thing.

        I learned a lot from the two sociopaths and the one narcissists I dated. I learned to really look at my own shit as a lot of them reflect yourself back to you. The simplistic reason I stay after I know might be I’m a fool as you mentioned. But I think the false hope comment you posted below is more accurate. I learned how to get more real with myself. Still learning.

        I’m not complaining about sociopaths as a whole…I’m complaing about their traits of playing the victim and refusing to take any responsibility for their actions.

      9. I also appreciate the level of intelligence and the world perspective they have. As I mentioned before, it’s very insightful. I do not think I know everything about sociopaths however from my experiences and from all my friends experiences they possess MOST of the same traits. Yes, they are not all identical. I just assumed that was obvious.

        And I obviously want to break this pattern of having toxic relationships which is why I’m on this site and looking for other tools to overcome.

      10. @Annoyed
        I asked, not assumed. But ok, sure, convince yourself I did wrong.

        You need to realise sociopaths mold into what you want, so maybe you’re just attracting the wrong kind of person.

        If you read your other comments, it surely doesn’t seem that you’re not complaining about sociopaths as a whole.. It seems like you’re attacking every single one of them.

      11. @positivagirl
        Which is why Id din’t go into details about what I did, because I knew it’d make you feel sick.

        How I can be so bold? Because I (falsely) assume people will care just as little as I do.

        Again, no need to apologise, I don’t care for apologies.
        I have some of these ‘traits’, but my other qualities are the complete opposite, which would, following the manual, would say I am not a sociopath. But that is foolish. Either way, this isn’t about me.

      12. The reason I wrote this site was to provide support as well as information. In a sense everyone here supports each other.

        As you have never dated a sociopath and you don’t have empathy you cant know the devastation and ruin that is caused to peoples lives – for no reason than they could.

        This site is to provide support to those people. Dealing with a sociopath level of crazy can leave people feeling isolated abandoned and with nobody to talk to.This wasn’t something they brought on themselves – often they were manipulated conned and deceived. If you cannot identify with this – then perhaps this isn’t the site for you. as this is almost certainly the type that I write about. It is the type that people who are feeling vulnerable, lost and confused seek support and understanding for.

        I don’t want you coming here and undoing that work – as this site is not written to provide support and understanding for sociopaths.There is sociopath world. Which is a great resource for information (I think) and honestly written and the people in the forum are mostly sociopaths – and they can all be as harsh as each other.

        I hope that i make my point clear. What you are, is not of importance to me. What this site is, and what it offers to readers – is of importance to me. If what this site offers, is not what you want or need, then perhaps it is not for you.

      13. I don’t mind sociopaths posting here, we had a regular here once JK who was on the whole, polite and respectful of other people.

        What isn’t really acceptable is minimising what people have gone through – as unless you have been there it is beyond (often) what could be believed. finding others who do believe you, is important. finding support of others who understand is also important.

      14. Anyway, all that’s happening here is you trying to manipulate us into to being more “open minded” about sociopaths. Which translates into putting up with sociopaths shit and NOT HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIORS. I’m not calling all sociopaths demons…but hey, if the shoe fits. My definition of evil is lack of remorse, no empathy, sheer terror, lies, deceit, theft, rape, conning, and manipulating. Rage. Abuse. Ironically, MOST sociopaths do all of those things. Hmmmmm.

      15. @Annoyed
        Most sociopaths definitely do not rape or theive…

        @positivagirl
        What’s the point of having a site about a certain type of person yet not knowing anything about them?
        If you want ‘healing’ and ‘recovery’ surely you would want to know what caused you pain. Wouldn’t that give you ‘closure’ that you all seek so much? And wouldn’t knowing, allow people to avoid the same thing from happening again?

      16. Lyss the sociopath I knew, stole from my bank, stole personal possessions.

        I don’t know anything about them? If that were true would this site be at the top of google listings?

      17. I agree Positivagirl, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say. I’ve seen the good and bad from my experiences and now I’m ready to heal. Goodnight :)

      18. @positivagirl
        You know something about one. One doesn’t dictate all.
        I often wonder how many people come to this site, read your posts, and break up with their boyfriends/husbands/whatever just because they believe what they’ve read. People are so very gullible.
        It’s at the top of google listings because people like to be overly dramatic and must put a label on everything and everyone. People listen to things they can relate to, and ignore those they cannot. It’s human nature. All humans convince themselves that they are right and all other opinions are wrong. People need to stop pretending it’s just sociopaths that do this, it’s just proving my point. People want to see themselves as saints, and to do that, they compare themselves to something they deem as lesser.

      19. @positivagirl
        Ok, two, three, four, I don’t care how many you’ve dated because it’s not enough to make assumptions to all.
        So the rest of your information comes from text books? I’ve already spoken about how little truthful value they actually hold.
        Or is the rest of your information coming from commenters? Where you see the situation from one side? And still, all these commenters are talking about a sociopath that fits your description. The reason you haven’t heard about any that do not fit this description, is because those people are in happy, functional relationships with next to nothing to complain about. And that doesn’t always mean there’s a mask present.

      20. @positivagirl
        Or those sociopaths are smart enough to not get mixed up in this mess of a world, relationship or not.
        All the sociopaths talked about on this site are fools, similar to those who date them. As I said, there are ALWAYS signs, obvious ones, if you can’t deal with them, then you’re not as strong as you may think.

      21. @positivagirl
        I already did? The traits I possess that are directly opposite of textbook ‘traits’. Or would you like me to go through, in a little more detail this time so you remember, how even though I have BDD and social anxiety, I tortured animals as young as 8 years old?

        Sociopaths are apparently extremely confident and outgoing. I’m not.
        Sociopaths think they’re top shit. I do not.
        Sociopaths compulsively lie. I do not.
        I do hope you realise by saying ‘I’ it means that I’m not the only one, others would be the same.
        Shall I go on?

      22. @positivagirl
        Man, and I thought you were smarter than this.
        I also thought you’d get my tourettes analogy, guess not. I also thought you understood my giraffe analogy with that other chick from some other post, when you actually defended me. Man, guess I don’t know people as well as I thought I did ;3

        I have no empathy. None. Naught. I don’t feel anything for anyone. I’m in the midst of manipulating my father just to get money, because he wants to toy with me, so I’ve made it a game.

        The amount of times I have hurt my mother, physically and mentally, and made it so she didn’t suspect a thing. I used to laugh at her whenever she’d cry in a movie. It’s safe to say she never wanted to watch a movie with me again. Yet, I’ve manipulated her into ignoring those things I used to do.
        In fact, my boyfriend was recently over, he was talking about how him and his brother would playfight and would choke each other mildly (as boys do). I manipulated him into letting me choke him ‘as a joke’ (t’s not a sexual thing at all, don’t get me wrong. I don’t get off at all from people’s pain, it’s just curiosity) and he had to fight me off of him because I couldn’t let go.

        I purposely look for things that will make me rage, because rage is the only deep emotion I feel that is fairly easy to trigger. So, I watch some Bold and the Beautiful ;3 I used to look on sites for attention seekers, and would tell them how much of a whore they were. I would, however, say it supported by a very logical argument.

        I don’t get the whole ‘it’s not my place to tell’ thing. If I know about someone cheating on someone I hardly even know, I’d tell them. ‘Hey, your boyfriend is a man whore, break up with him.’ I have no tact with that sort of thing, and the aftermath, well, if they hate me for it, I wouldn’t have wanted them to stay in my life anyway.

        I believe in very disapproved things, for example, I believe Hitler was on the right track with some things (not all). The Jews were taking up jobs in massive businesses, completely destroying any chance for a small, family run business to survive. The Jews were ruining Germany and it’s people. The reason people supported him wasn’t just because he was a great speaker, it was because he had a damn point.
        I believe anyone who has a bad relationship and gets hurt mentally is fucking stupid. It’s their fault, they got themselves into that mess, they have no right to complain about it. They avert the blame to the abuser, yet the abuser probably had a good reason. ‘They ruined me!’ Maybe you ruined them, you forced them to do that.
        I believe religion is the most idiotic thing in the world. All it is, is false hope. I don’t understand why people would want to be ignorant. I would rather possess all the knowledge in the world and be in extreme emotional and physical pain day in day out, than walk around with my eyes closed, and be blissfully stupid.

        Still believe the only thing I do is torture animals?

      23. @positivagirl
        And so you try your bullshit ‘no contact rule’ because I told the truth.
        You’ve spoken to me for months now, you’ve supported me in my speaking a few times, but now you don’t wish to reply because you found out what that person has done.
        You know so much about sociopaths? Surely you would have been able to see what I was going to tell you before acting all shocked and have your ‘stomach churn’.
        I’m that girl on the train who everyone calls cute in a kid-ish way because she’s shy and has large eyes. I’m the person you hired to serve the customers, and I must be doing something right because sales have gone up so much since I’ve been working. I’m the girl with her room walls filled with Marvel and DC comic posters, and wears nothing but cargo pants/baggy jeans and a game t-shirt.
        You would never be able to spot me from a mile away, even after I’ve just given you a fairly good profile of me. You know nothing more than those people who think sociopath means serial killer or rapist. You clearly didn’t learn anything from your petty little traumatic experience, only how to make a blog where people can cry about their -completely non-sociopath related- problems.

        I was tired of the stupid, idiotic people on this site anyway. Reply what you want, whether it be ‘haha I’m laughing at your moral outrage’, or ‘you’re a bully!’ I couldn’t care less, because I realise now people like you will never be able to get passed that one big obstacle; ignorance. Maybe I’m the stupid one, for thinking anyone could actually stop willing to be so damn blind.

  4. I just got out of a relationship with one.. well were taking a break. he says he just discovered he is a sociopath because he never really knew what was wrong with him. the lies, cheating, manipulation, more lies and promise breaking.. theres just so much. were taking a break now because he wants time to help himself.. but now that i know more of this sociopathic hell .. ik the real him. i dont want to go back

    1. Hi Virginia, welcome to the site.

      Interesting if he is saying that he is a sociopath? What has made him realise this? It is good that you don’t want to go back…. am sure he will be back though,…

      1. Hes driving me insane… I do so much for him and he only worries about himself. He was doing research last night to see what is wrong with him because he can never figure it out. Its scary knowing what he really is now. Hes a monster! He wants to separate from me for a while to try and fix himself and figure out who he is.. Is this a good idea?

    1. Although the psychopathic traits mentioned here can very easily and lead to dangerous levels of manipulation, they don’t have to.

      With tremendous effort we can manage it. I’m now seen as someone of intense understanding and observation with a keen strategic instinct. I know where those traits come from, yet I’ve made the conscious choice to use them for the betterment of friends, acquaintances, and society. People confide in me extraordinary things because they know, no matter what, I will not be judging them.

      It’s true that I don’t “feel” guilt or remorse, except to the extent that it affects me directly, but I do feel other emotions, which don’t have proper words of description, but nevertheless cause me to derive satisfaction in developing interpersonal relationships, contributing to society, and being gentle as well as decisive.

      1. I notice your sociopathic language it is the same as the one in my life. You say that people confide in you. They likely do because you seem trustworthy. But you would know that without conscience you would betray that confidence or threaten to, should you feel it necessary.

      2. You might not judge but you would betray confidence should you choose. This is what is hurtful and painful the betrayal of trust. I am sure that you can be wonderful (my ex was) it wasn’t what he was doing when he was good that was the problem. It was what he was capable of if he thought I was of no further use. Or if I hurt him (usually rejection) or if I was a threat to him (real or perceived).

      3. Because I’m in a foul mood I am going to comment on something that’s none of my business. You conveniently “forget” that teenage girls commonly share secrets with their “besties” and when they get into arguments suddenly the whole school knows that one of them went behind the bleachers with someone. Don’t pull that crap, because you know very well that empaths are just as capable of betraying trust. Obviously you don’t have anymore come backs or an original thought in your head. You only think about what society has spoon-fed you to believe and you blindly accept just like some “Christians” believe the Bible that men wrote regardless of what Jesus actually preached and practiced. It’s pathetic and sad, to be honest I think that’s why you quit responding to me because you knew that any person who took a step back and had an unbiased opinion would see that the truth is not what you try to convince people it is. You are scared to admit that a soiciopath is not as monstrous as people would like to believe. You with sociopaths, racist people in the mid-1900’s with blacks, and “Christians” today with homosexuals, all the same because yall were/are so afraid to admit that just because someone is noticeably different than you are doesn’t mean that they are evil, bad, wrong, a blight on society, whatever the hell small-minded people like yall believe. People with the mentality such as that are truly what holds society back and keeps us from advancing and becoming a more productive and unified people. Everybody contributes in their own way and a sociopaths contribution when applied is more beneficial to the community as a while than many empaths contributions. You really aren’t worth continuing a conversation with because your emotions on the subject cause such a handicap to you it makes me forget I’m speaking with someone older than 5. Even children quit believing Santa is real when they open their eyes some and realize their parents have been lying to them for so many years. I have to say that I don’t believe you will ever get to that point. Your eyes are sewn shut so tightly to the truth that you will always be a few steps behind.

      4. No John, as I said it was the anniversary of my daughter’s death having ptsd. This was all that was on my mind. News flash there are hundreds of comments here everyday that take priority over you and your ego!! But I did lol at your hissy fit comment it’s first thing in the morning so thanks for the light entertainment reading :)

      5. I call bullshit on everything you said. (in reference to “None” and “John”. We should hook THEM up together. Seems like a perfect match ;)

  5. The fact that you truly believe your own OPINIONS is ridiculous. Sociopaths are capable of a deeper love than “normal” people. We do mold ourselves to become what our partner needs but they will never have to want for affection, time, comfort, or fidelity. The majority of sociopaths are the most protective,loyal, and stable people you will meet despite our impulsiveness. When you meet a TRUE sociopath and not someone begging for attention claiming they are one then you will come to understand that our lack of emotions is in fact an advantage throughout our lives. I would move Heaven, Earth, and travel through Hell to provide for my loved ones and be the man they need me to be. Regardless of laws or hurting peoples feelings we do what is more beneficial for us. I will never place my girlfriend above myself but I don’t hesitate to place her or her kids above even my blood relatives. It benefits me to have her in my life because she provides what I crave most. Unlike many with emotions my wants and desires don’t revolve around physical appearance in my spouse. True, I am amazing in bed and I love the power it gives me over a person, but what I enjoy is lying there having a conversation when it’s over and seeing their raw emotions. Fact of the matter is I can go into great detail about how wrong you and your beliefs are, but I have more pressing matters to attend to. I had to educate the people who read this page and believe this bullshit you claim as science is a farce.

    1. There is a lot that you write that I can agree with. John and I have observed myself. However, it’s the lack of conscience when someone has wronged you, or if you think it’s over and the behaviour that shows that this isn’t true love. Without conscience you are capable of anything. Ownership possession and control is not love. I love and care for my dog. But am not in love with her. I own her. When you love someone when the relationship is over you don’t hurt that person. You don’t play games with their head. When you love someone you put their needs before your own. There is a lot that I agree with you on. You don’t lie to someone you love, you don’t isolate those you love, you don’t steal from them. Or threaten them when it’s all over. I am not dismissing what you say, as I witnessed this too. But the flip side is the narc rage the threats and control when it’s over. When have you continued to be loving towards someone who is now with someone else when you didn’t want them to go?… You wouldn’t you would ruin them so someone else wouldn’t want them. That is the truth and not a farce.

      1. That is a Sterotype, just like ALL white people are racist. ALL Arabs are terrorists. So on and so forth. Some may very well be exactly as u describe them. I am not. I have had women leave me, and to this day they are some of my good friends. No sex or games just open honesty and communication. They see the real me, have seen my emptiness when others aren’t around and still love and accept me. The women that I love say they are safer when around me because they know I will go to any lengths to protect them. I may be manipulative and controlling but I never lie and I don’t go out of my way to hurt someone because we have a difference of opinion or they can no longer handle being in a relationship with me. Much of what you have experienced is sad and it’s a shame that you met someone who reinforces that stereotype. Rest assured though that not all of us are like that.

      2. positiveagirl, I respect your view on the “love” topic regarding sociopaths, but I do not entirely agree. I respect your opinions because you seem to be generally more open to numerous points of view. I don’t want to repeat what other socios have already stated…I certainly doubt that a true sociopath has a “greater” love than neurotypicals. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that when non socios divorce or end their relationship, it is not uncommon for slander, fights, verbal attacks, placing children in the center, and other poor behaviors/words to be exchanged. I understand that on all these recovery blogs, survivors have experienced their own perceived type of hell. I am not attempting to discount this; rather, I believe it is important to point out that typical break ups can depict similar elements.

      3. Ending a relationship with one, is a nightmare, that is when it really kicks in, especially if they dont want you to leave. I think that is down to possession and control. If someone leaves and they don’t want them to…. they will destroy. In their mind, its justified (if I can’t have you, nobody else will) kind of childish really. I always thought it akin to a teenager kicking off at its parents… that kind of energy – relentless.

    2. Sociopaths, by definition, are incapable of love. Narcissists are close to and less severely damaged than sociopaths and may be capable of love. If you are describing yourself then you are not a sociopath. Sociopaths feel empty inside and often want to connect with others but they don’t. They are fascinated by the weird creatures around them and manipulate people shamelessly because that’s the only way they know to relate. They are likely to participate in risky behaviors and engage in brinkmanship in order to feel something. You are describing yourself as a person who loves deeply therefore you are not a sociopath. Now if what you call love is actually need, which can be mistaken as love by one who cannot feel love, then you are a sociopath. You certainly have enough anger to be one and are engaging in a powerplay like a sociopath would. If this isn’t you then perhaps you’re a narcissist.

    3. John, I am in love with someone that sounds just like you. I don’t believe he lies even though his behavior and actions often make me wonder, I do really trust him. I’m curious for your advice when he goes into what he called his “funk” and disappears…what are your thought? Do I keep reaching out to him to let him know I’m there, or just go dark like he does and leave him alone. I believe he is capable of love but as you said always puts himself first. I am trying to work through some of the side effects of his behavior because I do care for him and I believe it is mutual at least as much as he is literally capable of. I’m not ready to give up on him.

  6. Why do people have selective hearing/reading. I said I do NOT lie. I am honest to fault and some people can’t handle that but one thing I will never be is a liar. I do mirror the women I have dated and been several different personalities with several different people at the same time to fit their needs. I try to manipulate my girlfriend but she sees right through it and I admire that. She calls me out when I say things to try to get my way and stands her ground. This woman has changed my views on marriage and spending a lifetime with someone. I have found someone who strengthens and empowers me while at the same time she is my one weakness. I have told her what my love for her means and she understands it, yet somehow she is not scared of it. As twisted as my mind is allows me to be objective. My current year long relationship is the most stable and pure thing that I have ever experienced. The fact that she is married with 3 kids and there’s a 10yr age difference doesn’t affect the fact that we accept each other and our situation and still love each other.

    1. Would you be offended if I said I am laughing out loud right now. Wow just wow. So…. If she decided to end it you wouldn’t threaten to report her to her husband and ruin her life? No course you wouldn’t. All sociopaths are compulsive liars. This is a joke comment right??? I am still laughing.

    2. LMAO at “Honest to a fault.” Liar. This just goes to show how sociopaths will gather all the information they can to manipulate you even MORE. That’s why they are all on this page. They want to see what we know, convince us it’s a lie, and put themselves in the victim role so we will feel sorry for how much we have “shamed” and “stigmatized” them. Then when we continue to argue with FACTS and TRUTH, they will calls us “sheep” and act out in a rage. So typical. Can’t we ban this from this site? LOL

      1. They are liars and always will be. You can only take their words at face value. Sure you catch them red handed in a major scheme or lie, your lucky if they will admit it. Even then, the apology of i will change is just another start for them to work you over again. Only this time will be even more deceiving then the first. They will let u get into the comfort zone when u have your guards down and start with the manipulation again. Trust me i found out my ex was a sociopath last year and it was the worst decision i have made in my life. God bless who was ever involved in a relationship with a sociopath. I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.

      2. Excuse me, i meant i found out she was a sociopath and gave her another chance and try to help her to change.

      3. Yes I did that and the same thing did repeat again. They do have a tendency to do that. They can’t help themselves. They play good for a while but it doesn’t last long then the crazy shit kicks in again and again.

  7. Think what you want, it only sheds light on your ignorance. It’s no different than assuming I’m a terrorist because I’m an Arab. You are truly simple-minded and I pity you. I’ve told her I will be the death of her, I don’t try to hide my insanity with her because there’s no NEED to. Also when she broke up with me in August I may have tried to manipulate her to get back with me, but I would never jeopardize her relationship with her husband. I have her and her children’s social security numbers, bank acct info, email and social networking passwords, etc. Doesn’t mean I would ever use them to hurt her and she knows that. I like that she trusts me and I have no intention of ruining that. Think what you want, doesn’t change the fact that you don’t know me. The people who do, know who I choose to be. Judge all you want it doesn’t offend me, I get a good laugh out of people’s simplicity and ignorance. It proves that there are more inferior people in this world than yall would like to admit.

    1. You don’t see it do you? Let me repeat what you have just said to me –

      – You have her children’s social security numbers, bank account info, email and social networking passwords…..

      The one thing that you are assuming is that I don’t know who you are. I do. You are all the same. It is NOT normal, to have someone who you claim to ‘love’ childrens personal details. Now WHY would you want that? (NORMAL MEN WOULDN’T) i know why, you know why, you have it just in case.

      I bet that she knows you have it to. You have it ‘just in case’ and you WILL destroy her and hurt her – why? Cos you just can’t help it. Things will be great – as long as she is under your control and doing things your way.

      If she tried to dump you – well I am sure that you would tell her that you have those details of her children, leaving her terrified, that you will hurt her – wreck her marriage, turn her children against her….

      And that is NOT love.

      You see, the thing is about sociopaths, is that they just can’t help but give themselves away. You might be able to mirror…. but…. when your buttons are pressed, a different persona appears. This is the person behind the mask.

      As I said, it is the liability of what you CAN and WILL do….. and this is of course, why you have her childrens details – just in case she ever tries to escape you. And then the ‘loving’ ‘caring’ person will disappear, and she will realise it was never love. Not normal love. It was ownership, possession and control.

      Agree with me, or not, but you are deluded if you cannot see what I am saying is true.

    2. Also…. your train of thought is so predictable….. patterns of behaviour repeat. Like you are all robots.

      You say

      She broke up with me in August
      I wouldn’t jeapordise her relationship with her husband
      BUT I WOULD with her children…. (as you know that this is where it is REALLY going to hurt her) don’t you?

      You use (fake) love to manipulate – and fear to control. You cannot see, (or perhaps you can) just how sick, evil and twisted this is to do.

      Maybe you knew that she visited this site – or you looked for her here…. who knows…. but whatever, I am certain that you have all of her movements covered. It is not love…. you might be able to feign that to someone who is blind…. its abuse.

    3. We don’t viciously ruin people’s lives with no remorse or conscious. We have morals and care about others feelings. How ignorant of us. You’re right John, we are so “inferior”…please enlighten us with your holiness. Idiot.

  8. Think what you want. I know the truth about myself. I have her info because I am good with numbers I didn’t go out of my way to memorize them but I looked at them and I have a photo image of them in my brain. I would never hurt her or jeopardize her marriage or relationship with her children. You ASSUME I will because you want so badly to believe I am evil. Everything you just described would make for a horrible B horror movie, but it is nowhere close to the truth about me. Bottom line is I will always do what is logical and beneficial to me. I know she loves me (I don’t know WHY). I know that she doesn’t expect anything from me even when my true colors have shown she grounds me. She cooks for me. She pushes me to better myself. There is no reason I would want to hurt her. Even if she walked away from me we both know she can’t STAY away. There would be no point in ruining her life because when she comes back I will be the one having to fix the mess I made. It’s not logical to do what you claim I can’t help but do. Yes I CAN ruin her whole family. WOULD I? Never in a million years. I don’t like when she’s upset. I’m obligated to comfort her and fix the problem, if I’m the cause of that problem then that causes extra problems for me. Why would I do that? Do you even listen to what comes out your mouth? Do you realize how much sense that does NOT make? I love her in my own sick and twisted way. I enjoy the emotional hold I have on some of the women in my life and I wouldn’t like if they left my life, but with HER I shut down. I wasn’t sure who I was supposed to be anymore. As pathetic as it makes me I am somewhat dependant on her. I gladly do anything she asks or needs of me so I don’t have to go through that again. I went downhill without her in my life. I had money sitting in the bank because I wasn’t eating or going out, I was working insane hours to kill time. When she came back to me she was upset that I had “let myself go”. I’ve never needed to be around someone as badly as I do her and vice versa. She is my addiction. I would kill for her. She will be the death of me or I will be the death of her. This may not fit your definition of love, but it’s exactly what both she and I have been searching for our whole lives. I have no illusion of being perfect, sane, or normal, but she is everything I am NOT and at the same time compliments the characteristics that I value in myself. I don’t see how this should be a cause for concern if we both know each other and accept that it’s not a “normal” relationship. I trust her with information that can put a needle in my arm, she trusts that I would never do anything to hurt her. To me this is a fine arrangement. How can you dispute love just because it doesn’t fit your definition of white gowns and church every sunday? The love, passion and everything else that defines a relationship is there.

    1. As I said I would never hurt her. My momma raised me with the beliefs and values she had and I have decided that they work for me. I do not lie because I don’t see the point. I don’t cheat because I don’t see the point. I’m not abusive to women because it’s disrespectful to them and a man would be nothing without a strong woman lifting him up. Children and their innocence should be protected at all costs. Everything I do benefits me somehow, be it entertainment or practical uses like feeding me. She knows I have all that information and she doesn’t like it and thinks it’s creepy, but knows I wouldn’t use it for vindictive purposes. She actually asked me to feel out some applications for her online while I was at work bored one day. I had to set up profiles, enter her previous work history for the past 15yrs, birthday, social, email, etc. That’s the only time I have ever went into her email account. She asked me not to go into any of her accounts even though I have the information and I promised her I wouldn’t. A man is nothing if he can’t honor his word. She has the courage to turn me in, she loves me enough not to. Stop generalizing sociopaths. I’m an Arab man who supports gay marriage, has no children, am NOT a terrorist, etc. Alternatively I have taken life with no remorse, been to prison, was upset when my dog had surgery but could care less when I see people being tortured. Yes, when she left me I didn’t threaten her. I don’t have to tell her husband because she already did. He knows there’s someone else but he doesn’t believe in divorce. Her kids don’t deserve to have their opinions of their mother diminished. I’m not a pathological liar because it’s too time consuming and like I said there’s no point. I choose to live by a set of beliefs, most people don’t agree with them but they work for me. I would never hit my girlfriend, but I will beat a man and watch the life leave their eyes. I won’t lie, but I will use peoples beliefs and needs to manipulate them to my advantage. I may be a felon. I may be a sociopath. I may be an Arab and Czech mix. None of those facts about me DEFINE me. Some things you are born with like race, sexual orientation, certain mental disorders/disabilities, some things you can choose to change like attitude, perspective, character. Just because some people choose to fall into the streotype that others believe of them doesn’t mean everyone does. That’s why generalizing people isn’t completely accurate.

  9. Actually I take that back, I won’t fabricate something out of thin air but out of convenience I will shorten things and cut out what I consider irrelevant information. Example: Complete truth is the woman who raised me wasn’t my biological mother so I have 3 older siblings who only share part of my blood but i was raised with them, the other 7 are my half-siblings by my father and i rarely get to see them. That’s too much information to give on a first date so i simply say “I’m one of eleven kids”. I don’t consider things like that a lie though, it’s just a very condensed version of the whole truth.

  10. Why dramatize it? Why play victim? (Also I was raised with the belief that matters of the family are secret). It annoys me when people try to pity me. My girlfriend drags pieces of my past out of me, the rest of the people who know were witness to it. I don’t advertise my childhood for pity, but I will discuss parts if they’re relevant to the topic at hand. I ask again why are you so focused on stereotyping me? What makes you fill so threatened that a person without emotions is possibly more moral and sound of mind than you (an empath)? What do you fill you will lose if you accept that just because I am different, that doesn’t mean I am automatically bad or evil? I know what drives me to share my thoughts and views on different matters with people, but what makes you fill the NEED to convince people that you’re right and there is no other possible alternative? I’m very curious to understand your mentality behind this.

    1. They feel the need to do this because of the IMMENSE amount of pain that has been dealt to them. If you can take someone higher than anyone else, then you can take them lower. A pissed of sociopath is the worst of enemies, as we become ruthless. If you truly do not understand why people hate us as much as they do, then you haven’t really learned anything about human emotion.

      1. Hang on being hurt in life is no excuse. I do agree a pissed off socio is the worst of enemies…. As you lose it during the narc rage and don’t care. But I don’t buy it it’s because you have been hurt what kind of excuse is that?

  11. Apparently you are still searching for answers to my questions. When you figure it out or think you understand let me know, I sincerely am interested in your reasoning behind your unwavering opinion and fear of the different/unknown.

    1. My gosh, you have such a big ego. Did you really think that I was sat searching for answers to your questions? I write my answers without thinking. After a three day horrific labour, on 19/01/10 I held my dead daughter in my arms. Today was 19/01. Perhaps today I had other things on my mind.

  12. I’m an egotistical asshole I don’t deny that. Quite frankly I wasn’t expecting you to ever find an answer, but I am curious whenever you gather your composure. I don’t usually see dates written like that unless the person is from Europe or something. I wasn’t expecting that at all. As for your daughters death day I understand how that affects people. I do crazy shit on my mommas birth and death days. Those may be the only unexplainable and illogical things I have ever done. I hope your night gets better, it sucks having something like that on your mind and not being able to change anything about it.

    1. @John Orona
      If you’re still watching this site, and you see this comment, allow me to thank you. Your writings were completely justified, and honestly, I don’t know how you kept back from losing your shit. I would have.
      As for your question to why do they hate us so much, it’s the same reason for why religion exists. False hope. While I cannot answer why they need it, I do know that all of them do to some extent need hope false or not to keep them happy. Ignorance is truly bliss in their eyes. We don’t understand that, because we’d rather have the knowledge of the world instead of walking around with our eyes closed, not seeing what’s right in front of us.
      It’s funny, not too long ago I had a heated discussion, similar to yours, where people wouldn’t see what I was talking about, calling me heartless when they did not know me, and pretending to know a sociopath better than a sociopath does. In contrast to your conversation, positivagirl actually agreed with me, and treated me with leniency, and actually said she wouldn’t judge someone just because they’re a sociopath. Yet in this conversation, she is the complete opposite.
      Makes me wonder if you actually changed her opinion ;3 take pride, my friend. You made my life a whole hell of a lot easier.

      1. Well, crap Positivagirl…they have now manipulated you into justifying their behavior and are congratulating each other on it. Sad day.

  13. @John
    Not to speak for Positiva, but she probably didn’t respond to you originally any further because your points are, to those who’ve had the sociopath experience, false and a waste of time to contradict.

    Still, since you seem adamant about churning and burning, here is your much-needed attention and response: sociopaths are not only not more productive to society as a whole, they are social and interrelational trainwrecks. They thwart, undermine and extort every good social system we have in this world.

    They are not just “different”, like a free-spirited girl who colors her hair green, or an out-of-the-box thinker/nerd who establishes a great new technological product, they are opportunistic, cameleon-like creatures who adapt to the emotions of others because they fail to experience geniune ones themselves. They are anomolies. Abnormal. And, not in a positive way.

    It would be terrific for every deceived person here if sociopaths were as wonderful as you’d like the world to believe they are, but in fact, they are the blight on society, they are destructive, not productive, they do enjoy creating confusion, misdirecting, hiding, and just generally creating chaos which means they are incapable of working for any collective good.

    You opinions are not only the minority here, they are the equivalent of trying to throw gasoline into a bee’s nest. If you like them so much, do the rest of us a favor and marry one of your own kind, keep to yourselves and interact only with your perceived superrace! That would reduce the number of you bothering decent people.

      1. Sociopaths / Psychopaths ……. Don t we all just love em …..

        Cuddly little unhinged creatures that they are.

        Nick

    1. people are not decent. people try to obtain decency through rules, religion, and boundaries. Even if it works, it is superficial. If people truly were decent, it would be a lot harder for a sociopath to operate. We pretend to be more decent than we are, because we believe you deserve it.
      You, specifically, are attacking someone for something they cannot change. This is nowhere near decent. I understand that your life has probably been hurt by sociopaths. My life has been hurt by normal people. I hope you can find more positivity in your experiences in life. The mere fact that your sociopath wasn’t a psychopath was something truly wonderful.

      1. I really do agree that non socio s can also be heartless selfish and hurtful. I have experienced that too. Last socio was more funny than anything although I didn’t find it too funny at the time. But am grateful for all he taught me.

  14. I dont think that the person is viewed as weak. Usually, the partner is exalted past human. Its when the relationship goes sour that the partner is dehumanized.

  15. To John Orona, I just wanted to say thank you. I’ve just recently discovered that I’m a sociopath, and when I tried to research this particular subject, the only thing that I found was the typical stereotype that a sociopath is just a bad person. I’m glad to see that there are other sociopaths like me that don’t fall on that ridiculous stereotype.

    1. John Orona doesn’t sound like a classic sociopath to me. He may be close to one but I don’t think he crosses the line. He sounds more like a narcissist to me. There is an informal classification of malevolent narcissist who can create a lot of damage because of their vindictiveness but even a normal narcissist hurts people with their callousness and selfishness. I think John may just be a run of the mill narcissist and a troll who likes to stir things up. He’s successfully stirring things up but not getting what he wants. He’ll eventually leave this site.

    1. Thank you Scarlett… are you psychic? This post and the comments on it was going to be the topic of my post today – but I changed my mind. Maybe I can add to the end of the post.

      Happy Valentines Day!! :)

  16. Remember people just because some exhibits traits of a sociopath doesn’t mean they are one. Most men are 50% psychopathic while most women are 37% psychopathic.

  17. though i may agree with some of this what i do not agree with is the one sidedness of it all by portraying sociopaths as a male thing only, especially when you keep saying him him him, is there no such thing as female socio paths? yes i think there is so the shoe fits both feet and should be written that way…just saying….

    1. Yes there is such a thing as female sociopaths. This was just a blog. Writing as a writer about males I had encountered. Later posts I did change it to gender neutral…. But it’s harder to write and more difficult to read. So I might return to writing he it’s easier than saying ‘the sociopath’ every other sentence.

    1. UMMMMM…INCORRECT! Psychopaths do know right from wrong…they simply do not really care. Respectfully, here is why you are inaccurate: If psychopaths did not know right from wrong, they would never be held accountable in the legal system/court system. People who are deemed incapable of realizing right from wrong are categorized as the “clinically insane” for lack of better term, and therefore, they end up in state hospitals rather than the prison system. And since psychopaths account for approximately 25percent of the prison system….

      It really depends which “professional” is asked, but the term psychopath generally gravitates toward Hare’s checklist for personality traits compared to the DSM and other testing modalities that adheres to criminality (hence only depicting a portion of people) and people claim genetics/born that way is the main depiction. In addition, some researchers say psychopaths have the ability to turn on an empathetic switch in their brain (right hemisphere dominant=much higher emotional intelligence). Oh…and psychopaths/sociopaths/APD/NPD have LOW emotional intelligence:) Typical people have a high range of emotions…but this does not necessarily mean that everyone is constructive with their emotions.

  18. Why is the sociopath in this article a male?. Women can be too.
    I am a psychopath, seems strange saying that hahaha. Yet, i find this whole thing absolutely retarded. Why? because although i love myself, have a huge ego and spend hours admiring myself all day, everyday, i can still fall in love and see other people as perfect human beings. I confess, i do tell my boyfriend i love him just to hear him say it back but i dont find him weak at all. I feel even more wonderful and often ask him to compliment me, which seems obnoxious but he genuinely does not mind and finds it rather funny.
    I do manipulate him, but only into minor things. For example, making me a cup of tea and letting me watch my favourite film even if he hates it. He does know what i am up to when i give him my puppy dog eyes too, somehow the man sees right through me.
    But, i do those things for him and dont give it a thought.
    All you need is to have a mutual understanding of who you both are truely.
    And as for the people saying that psychopaths are abusive and all of that bullshit, Perhaps you need to cpnsider the fact that your just getting with arseholes who think its fine to slap people around. They are just nasty people,
    I have tons of good friends, a fantastic family and i genuinely do love my boyfriend. I have since i was twleve, we started a relationship when we were seventeen and we have been together for nine years now.
    So, before people read this stupid article and believe it and pity themselves, they should go and meet a psychopath, who isnt a total bastard and reconsider everything they have heard about ‘every’ psychopath.
    P.s. Your boss probably has major psychopathic tendancies

    1. It’s a male because the ones I dated were male. Old posts all say he. Later ones say the sociopath. Think I am going to go back to that way of writing it was easier to write. Everyone is an individual even psychos and sociopaths. There are varying degrees. I still say ownership possession and control is not really love (to me) so far nobody has said anything to convince me otherwise.

      I don’t hate psychos or socios maybe just our definition of what we define as love is different.

  19. I have just recently discovered the label for myself that others have for us. It has been enlightening/embarrasing/uplifting and so many other confusing emotions. I believe not knowing what I was until my thirties has helped me in a lot of ways. I’ve spent so much time trying to understand why I was different. I often envied people’s ignorance because it seemed to make them happy, regardless of how I saw their lives. I also was raised Christian, so I am fairly compassionate. This doesn’t mean I wouldn’t snap the life out of someone for looking at me the right way. I also found the article offensive, but I understand that it nearly impossible to see the other side of things when you’ve been hurt. I can only speak for myself because I do not know if I have ever met another. That being said… I would say pretty much all the “tell-tale” traits you have of us are spot-on….it is the reasoning you put behind
    these actions that I don’t agree with.
    ” Listening to what you say (to discover what your needs and wants are)
    Reflecting (Offering you back what you need and want)
    Mirroring (mirroring your body language, repeating back to you what you are saying, ‘active’ listening skills) ”
    Definately. When someone takes an action within my eyesight, I do not just see the action taking place, I see the emotion behind it. I cannot comprehend how anyone can actually believe “true love” is found in a relationship where your partner doesn’t truly know you.
    “Love is a really important game to the sociopath in dating. Without love the sociopath loses their power.”
    This isn’t true. I can find power in most situations. I do not need love to feel powerful. Honestly, I always feel powerful, even when I am weak. This is most likely due to being successful in most situations I have ever been placed in.
    ” Wants to spend all of their time with you
    Appears interested in you and your interests
    Appears to share similar interests, goals, and morals
    Tells you constantly that they love you
    Showers you with attention and flattery
    Fakes that they will help you to fulfil your dreams
    Is very helpful and useful ”
    These things occur because they are important in a relationship, and should occur. Most of the problems I have had in my past were because I did not get what I put in. Sure, I could say the right words or look the right way, and I am showered…but then it feels fake. So I always chose to tell the person what was wrong with them, so that they would fix it, so that I would like them again. Not love, because true love never leaves you. It defines who you are; but love was not enough for me.
    “He uses LOVE and fakes love, to
    Get you to fall in love
    So that (if you are in love) you feel a responsibility for him, and are weak
    Manipulate you ”
    I have faked love, of course. I need to, almost am bound to. My mother deserves to have a loving relationship with her son. Yes, this is a form of manipulation. Not all manipulation is wrong or hurtful. I do not fake love so that people fall in love or so that they become weak. Their weaknesses become my weaknesses, and this would simply be self-destructive. Honestly, I hate how everyone wants to use love as a reason. If you do not complement the person you are with, you shouldn’t be with them.
    “With this belief that you have met someone who seems so perfect for you, you feel safe to let down your guard, and fall subsequently in love with the sociopath.”
    This is probably correct. I generally fall for people that seem perfect for me too.
    “Because the sociopath has no conscience, he doesn’t care whether this causes you pain.”
    These are true. I started questioning religion only because of my lack of conscience. I also enjoy both hurting or helping people, depending on the person. Helping people obviously comes with more long-term rewards, so generally this is what you get from me. You can come to me with a problem, and I can tell you exactly how to fix it. I can most likely tell you multiple ways of going about it. At the moment, I do not think about hurting anyone. It is more, what can I do to better this situation, or that(hence this particularly long attempt). Put me around hurtful people, and I will choose to hurt them over helping them. I cannot just choose a side. I cannot be good or bad. I am both. I am what you make me. I am a reflection, after all.
    “The sociopath thrives to
    Be in control
    To win”
    haha, yes. Or maybe that is the testosterone talking. Winning is important to me. I do like to win at any cost. I like being in control or working as a team. I do not do well being told what to do; although, you could just ask and it would happen 99.9% of the time.
    “Duping others, conning, and winning, obtaining what he wants by deception can give the ultimate high. They suffer from boredom, and are not restricted by either
    Moral compass, responsibility for anyone else
    Emotions and feelings for anyone else except themselves”
    This is oxymoronic. If it gave the ultimate high, I would not be bored. No…the ultimate high probably comes from either taking a life, or saving one. I personally have never duped, conned, or decieved anyone out of boredom. It is more rewarding to break a rule than it is to hurt someone. You gain more power, freedom, and confidence(as long as you don’t get in trouble) from just breaking the rules. People have a moral compass(very flawed generally) only because of what they have learned. That is why so many people seek religious guidance to help them with their own darkness. It is different for me. I am not ashamed of my darkness, because it has its purposes. I wish that I could control it better though. For all the control that I have over other people, self control is so hard to maintain. We all have our weaknesses. I am restricted by other people’s emotions and feelings. There are things I wish I could do to help balance this world out, but generally people wouldn’t understand.
    “Love to the sociopath means three things:
    Control
    Ownership
    Source for supply”
    This is not true of myself. It is hard to explain WHAT love means to me, because love is not an object that can be defined, it is a place. It is an unfathomable height, and I suppose this is why it is hard to move on for people. This is sad. For anyone reading this that feels like they don’t know what to do to move on, you need to understand that you just weren’t right enough for us. Blaming it all on the other person will help you cope with the pain on a day to day basis, but it will never give you true closure because its not the truth. relationships fail because of both people. It is good to look at both sides of things, regardless of how hard you have to search. I am currently iffy on the no contact thing. I suppose if you just cannot move on, no contact is the best choice. Good luck to everyone.

    1. Sorry I haven’t been around for a few days. I am responding to comments backwards. I thank you though for offering your feedback and the perception from a sociopath perspective. I am sure it will be helpful for someone. I do think that while patterns of behaviour do repeat. Behind the sociopathic mind is an individual. Patterns in brain might repeat. But everyone is an individual. I believe so. Of course I am limited to write from my own perspectI’ve of repeated patterns of behaviour witnessed. I witnessed enough to write of the commonalities, while also appreciating that all of those were still individual people.

      To me, to say all people who are sociopaths are the same, would be as ridiculous as saying all people with ptsd are the same. Patterns do repeat and this can be written about but everyone still has their own individual self…. Including sociopaths (I believe)

  20. I suspect a relative of mine is a sociopath. He uses everyone, family or otherwise, and seems to almost feed off people’s problems and insecurities – he seems to love nothing more than seeing you depressed, so then he can compare you to him and brag about how great he’s doing. He even justifies scamming people (i won’t go into detail), saying he only does it to people who can afford it. Whenever people question him about what he does wrong, he’s all “yeah I know” and laughs it off, then continues anyway, and he’s hypocritical a lot of the time too – It’s almost like he believes only he is allowed to think or do certain things, other people who do the same thing or even less than him are wrong.

    He changes his opinions about things constantly too and is very good at manipulating people and for some reason he’s impossible to argue with. You just never win, EVER.

    I only suspect he is, so I could be wrong. Just adding to the conversation, because I’ve been googling and stumbled upon this.

  21. I find this site offensive.
    You act like people choose to be born as sociopaths. It’s something that you’re born with, and there is nothing you can do it about it.
    It’s a very real disease and instead of solely focusing on getting away from sociopaths you should try focusing on ways to help them.
    But what does it matter, I’m a sociopath, not a human being.

      1. A psychopath once told me that he loved these recovery blogs. I asked him why. He answered, “Because their rage and hatred for people of my own nature is a reflection of myself…and that is how I know I have truly won.” I thought he was full of shit…at the time.

    1. Why don’t you try helpjng yourself instead of playing victim and expecting others to do it for you. Even being a sociopath you are still responsible for your behaviour. Try managing it.. it’s not someone else’s responsibility to manage you, it’s yours.

    2. If you actually think it’s a disease, you’re not a sociopath. As positiva said, stop playing victim – especially when you’re lying in the process.
      You’re making a worse name for people who have a bad one enough as it is.

  22. I am reading this and confused, I have a family I love them in my understanding of love. I would die for them because I know I should and I dont particularly see death as a bad thing other than not being here to provide for my family. I am rigid in what I believe is right and wrong. I am aware that I mirror people and analyse people and adapt to get what I want. If someone is upset I just feel awkward as I want them to do it away, I don’t care that they are upset other than it making my life awkward but I would help them if it stopped them feeling upset. I will lie but I won’t hurt someone unless they are causing me a problem. I am very loyal to my family and would destroy anyone that attempted to hurt them. Again because I feel I should. I don’t think I am a sociopath but I know something is wrong. Confused and looking for answers.

    1. Hi Simon,

      If you are loyal to your family, and do not cause problems to people. Do you really feel that you need to have a label? What is a label anyway? What is important, is who you are, and how you feel about yourself, and how you treat others (how you make them feel). There is such a thing as a disempathetic sociopath. This type can have love for people that are close to them, and in their inner circle.

      This is a description of the disempathetic type

      Disempathetic type

      The disempathetic type is able to feel an emotional connection to a restricted group of people. This group may include friends, pets or family members. The sociopath regards people outside of the group as objects. Typically, people have a wide circle of empathy for others; however, many people may feel no compassion for certain people like murderers or criminals. The sociopath differs from normal people by have a tiny group of people whom they seemingly care about.

      You can read more about different types of sociopaths here http://www.ehow.co.uk/about_5371687_types-sociopaths.html

  23. Heh, I just found this looking up something else. it made me laugh a little.

    Question positivagirl, do you still believe this? That sociopaths cannot love? Do you have different opinions to many of your posts now, or do our opinions remain the same?

  24. The only thing I have found is that you can really get hurt trying to help some one like that. I love some one that has hurt me multiple times and because she knows I adore her she is in her comfort zone where she will do it again

  25. i had a long relationship with a sociopath…. he lied from the start…fogot to tell me he,d already had 3 wives….didn’t seehis eight kids….everything he told me turned out to be lies…..he made himself a mirror image of me! I thought he loved me as much as I loved him…. he robbed me… took cheques out my cheque book….he was the most wonderful lover I had ever had…..very passionate…..my husband left me for a younger woman just before my 60th birthday… I was vulnerable and very flattered….he had thousands of pounds out of me..itried to helphim….. he would flip from this quiet. lovely person…. to this foul mouthed… ogre who would call me a f.ing bitch….hed send awful texts saying I…I have given you herpes in your mouth! he cut all my clothes to shreds..all my shoes handbags no stone unturned …but I still had him back!i was infatuated with him and he knew that… he asked me to marry him.. went to book the date at the registry office… I paid of course….a few days later he said…. you didn’t thnki was going to marry you did you…..he said ..I was going to jilt you!! I went to cancel the date… but he,d already been and asked for the money back!!!he went to the police and got me arrested saying… ide scratched his face… he had 4 scratches down his face… I was humiliated…. he,d done it himself!!! then he dropped the charges and came with a bunch of flowers… saying… the police will never get me…I know the system and he did too!!! so clever…. we went to turkey.. I paid… I thought hed be ok away from home…as soon as we got there he changed.. he beat me up and put the bootin while I was lay on the floor… I came home bruised with 2 cracked ribs….the police took pictures but weren’t able to do anything as it was done abroad…he even knew this! he knew all the rules…..its five years since he left..and I still bear the scares of my life with him…. when he left he took both my kids phone numbers out of my phone…. they havnt had anything to do with me since… he rang my neighbours too .luckily they stuck by me…..he ruined my life and tried to ruin my reputation…. it was all about humiliation……I,ll never for get him…..not ever …I don’t hate him… I feel sorry for him… within 3 weeks of him leaving he,d moved in with another lady…. she rang me on his phone….saying your not having him back!!! not long after … he,d broke her wrist……I don’t know what happened to him…..evil!!! without feeling!……..but he made me feel so special… and loved…..I don’t think ive ever loved anyone so much in my life… now im alone!!!!hope I havnt rambled on to much….its something you never forget….. thanks

  26. You’re not a sociopath, Lyss. You’re an angry, embittered person who, if you could get out of yourself for a second, would benefit from therapy.

    1. Oh? So, when I was young enough to hardly know what angry and bitter felt like, or what was even going on for that matter, I was still somehow angry and bitter?
      Why do you think I’m not a sociopath? Because I don’t have SOME of the traits? Because apparently every sociopath is the same? I revert back to my tourettes analogy.
      Been there, done therapy, didn’t work because I didn’t care enough. The psychologists were all too dim witted to actually know a thing.
      So, I had a small, but not a big, rage moment in my mind. I lashed out, because I was having one of those days where everywhere you went people just had no logic. Yep, I’m talking about the dumbasses on public transport, where most of my anger actually came from in the morning.

      But no seriously, what makes you think I’m not a sociopath?

      1. I dont think you are either lyss. For a start sociopaths are charismatic charming and certainly don’t have social anxiety. Sociopaths have no fear so how could they have social anxiety? They are often life and soul of the party.

      2. I think that your issue lyss is ‘trust’ it didn’t work with a counsellor as you can’t break down the barrier of trust to allow someone in so they could hurt you. You are also young. The person who you are could be totally different in 10 years. Don’t put a label on you that you don’t deserve. You are still young. Therefore closer to being affected by childhood. You see counsellors as ‘authority’ same as parents. So you switch off this is why you don’t care. This is what I think anyway.

      3. If you honestly think, positiva, that every sociopath is the exact same like that, you’re a fool, again.
        I really do feel like I’m repeating myself. Every person is different, and a lack of empathy is just one thing that some people have, and how that manifests is all about the personality.
        Even if you go to sociopath forums (god forbid) you’ll see different, diverse personalities. You’ll see some are extremely sadistic, some are narcissistic, some are completely chill with everything and are laid back as all hell. They all possess no empathy, but it doesn’t change every single person the exact same way. There’re so many people on that site that don’t actually comment on anything because they either don’t care for attempting to be top dog like others, or they’re too scared to. Doesn’t make them less of a sociopath.

        Now, don’t get me wrong, people love me. I don’t know why, but I’ve got the charismatic thing down, without really trying (or wanting to be honest). A sociopath doesn’t have no fear, everyone has fear for different things. I don’t fear death at all for example, nor do I fear snakes and lizards (love them), or extreme pain inflicted on myself. I could easily be tortured and not give a crap. But, I have social anxiety when there’s more than about 5 people in a room (under that and I’m ‘extremely charismatic’ again), I’m arachnophobic. I’m shit scared of thunder and lightning.

        Can I ask, positiva, what does it feel like to just believe everything you read?

      4. I don’t believe everything I read lyss. I worked with people and behaviour for decades and a real life sociopath (who isn’t scared of people or anything at all really) is still around my life. No litrature there. Its what I see.

      5. I agree with you about everyone being different that is obvious. We all are. However I struggle to believe that anyone without a conscience would have social anxiety why would they what would they fear? They don’t care about consequences of actions… I think you actually want to be a sociopath. If you cannot relate to most of the diagnostic criteria its not you is it.

      6. Lol, that’s the funny thing, I really couldn’t give a crap about authority. Age doesn’t matter to me. I’ll admit, I’m mildly disrespectful to elders because honestly I just don’t care about them any more than a normal person, so them expecting me to pisses me off.

      7. So because, again, you worked with one, two, however many guys you’ve dated, you assume you know all. Hypocritical are we?
        He had fears. Trust me. And it’s terribly naive for you to think otherwise.

      8. Yep, but repressed. Positiva is right… you have to trust to be helped and that’s probably a tall ask of you right now. I wouldn’t do it until I matured. I went through several counselors, just like you, thinking the world was idiotic. What’s idiotic is false bravado.

        Somebody knows something that can help you. Nobody can do anything until you’re brave enough to ask for what you need. Stop telling yourself nobody cares because of some random behavior and take a risk and know for sure. Blaming others is a funny thing. When you blame others, it’s like talking bad about people—you take the focus off yourself. But you’re still left with yourself at the end of the day.

        Don’t waste your time on a board where people have been hurt by sociopaths, yelling for people to see you for the good in you. You probably DO have legitimate good in you, along with your problems… that a qualified therapist can help you explore and look at. If you can’t trust any other way, tell yourself they’re there for the money and have to help you, therefore you can talk about whatever the hell you like. Playing games just wastes everybody’s time. Try something different. You might surprise yourself.

      9. Actually want to be? Why the fuck would anyone want to be a sociopath? Why would anyone WANT to constantly miss out on what feels like some secret code between everyone but you? While I do not care for loneliness, I have observed others do, and a lot.
        I fear loud noises in a crowd, and I fear not being able to take control of the situation, which is much more likely to happen when there is more people. Being in a group, it’s much more likely that you’ll be exposed, because of the theory of group think. If one person even suspects one tiny little thing, or heck even doesn’t like you, which is unlikely in my situation, they’re more likely to voice their opinion to the group, ruining my chances of being able to manipulate my way into gaining something from someone in that group.

      10. What I find funny, positiva, is that you say ‘oh, I don’t believe everything I read’ yet then you start going on about textbook criteria. Learn to think for yourself, please. It’s a much more endearing trait.

      11. @Jusagurl
        Awh, you’re one of those people who thinks everything in the world can possibly be ok if everyone goes to THERAPY.
        I’m not you. I’m not someone who gives a shit for talking about her problems, mainly because I don’t have any. I had a shit past, so what? It has NEVER bothered me. And it never will.
        I really do despise people like you, who think therapy makes the world go round. I’ve been in therapy since before I even knew I needed to put on a mask. It’s nothing to do with trust. If people give me a reason to trust, I’ll trust them. I have no problems with that, no difficulties, nothing.
        You judge the small bits of me you’ve read with a textbook, not thinking for yourself.

  27. No, Lyss, I don’t. I was idiotic (much like you are now) and thought it couldn’t help. But you are typical of youth in that, you will have to grow up at your own rate, and learn how to better communicate and interact with others, for people to let you “play their reindeer games”. Manipulate indeed. I doubt you can easily get a cup of coffee, even when you’ve paid for it given your attitude. Sorry, but I didn’t read all your post before replying. Just got bored.

    1. Oh for shit’s sake Jusagurl, I’ve been awake since 2am and am drunk as fuck, of course I’m not thinking straight. You’d also do well to keep in mind that idiotic and telling the ugly truth isn’t the same thing.
      Awh, and the best thing is I’d probably be the nicest, sweetest little girl to you if you ever met me. I’m only ever like this at this time of the morning, and on the internet.

      Man, people on this site really are pathetic. All your sociopaths must be glad to have gotten rid of you all. I’m done with weak women who think they’re saints. I’m done with ignorance. I’m done with stupidity. I really, sincerely hope one of these days one of the people I hurt come to this site and see what I’ve left behind, and kill themselves over it. I wouldn’t put it passed someone so pathetically fragile to get hurt by a sociopath, to do something like that.
      I do hope you have a brilliantly phenomenal day. Goodbye.

      1. Might be smarter to be done w the drinking, mean drunk. Here’s a kicker…I’ve been drinking early myself today as it’s a holiday weekend. Still more together than you regardless, but you go on blaming the world.

  28. I know the title of the website is “dating a sociopath”, but I hope it is alright for me to post as well. If it isn’t, you can tell me. I just wanted someone to talk to about this and it is related to the topic.
    I am 18 years old and three weeks ago, I found out that my father is a textbook narcissist, possibly a sociopath.
    When I was around 2, he worked in another town, and had a small house there on land that he owned (where he worked on his oil rigs). He was there for years. He had a girlfriend in this home. He lied to my mom, led her on for years. He was horrible to her. Very manipulative. Any time she would do something she was proud of, he would shut her down, criticize her. When she praised him, he “loved” her more than anything else and she was the best thing that ever happened to him. If she criticized him even a little, he would scream, throw it back in her face, deny it all. He was perfect and could do no wrong. Leading up to their divorce, he told my brothers that my mother was diagnosed bipolar and that she was “crazy” behind her back. Total lie. My oldest brother believed every last word. Totally believed every lie he ever told him, every made up story about how mean she was to my dad and even to him when he was a little boy. But of course he was too young to remember, so dad filled him in. LIES.
    My other brother (the middle child) saw right through it. He knew my dad was full of bs and he didn’t understand why he was really doing this.
    I’m skipping some. Too much to write and this is already lengthy. :( Sorry.
    But here we are, I’m grown up, my father is a stranger to me. (That’s how I want it. And we’ve never been close. Even when he had an opportunity to see me, he didn’t.) But he showed up at my high school graduation out of the blue WITH HIS NEW GF (he’s been married 3 times so far) saying “I miss you, baby. I miss you so much. I love you. Do you love me? I love you so much.” with his voice cracking. I started crying believing that I was breaking his heart. But when we broke the hug, he had dead eyes. No emotion. And he went back to talking completely normal with no sound of emotional distress or anguish. I think he wanted to show off to his new girl friend what a good dad he was.
    I’m struggling with accepting that my father is the way he is and that I shouldn’t feel guilty for not wanting to be around him. I still feel like he really misses me, that he’s hurting. But I’m growing up and really starting to SEE things. My mom finally told me about the affair, my middle brother finally told me about what dad said to them when they were little.
    And I now do not believe that he really misses me. (I keep telling myself that)
    But I still feel guilt and pain thinking that I’m hurting him. It’s so hard to shake. And my oldest brother is still a puppet. Blaming mom for everything. The affair, the false memories, thinking she’s bipolar, all of it.
    The absolute WORST part is that now it’s affecting my brother and I. Our relationship. And I love him so much, he’s been like a real dad to me. We are very close. But this is separating us and I don’t know what to do. He keeps trying to force a relationship between my father and I. (Because my father has him convinced mom is telling me lies about dad to keep me from seeing him because she’s just the worst person ever. When in reality, mom hasn’t said one negative thing about dad up until now when I asked.)
    My real question, what I really want to know, DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A SOCIOPATH TO YOU? And if so, what do I do for my brother? What can I do to help this situation between he and my mom, between he and my dad, without making him think mom put me up to it as part of a scheme of hers?

  29. “The sociopath does not and cannot experience love. Unless love to you, means ownership and control?”

    The author must not be a sociopath and thus is only making observations from a select few encounters. The literature is assumption after assumption. Nothing more meaningful than me saying there is a boogeyman under your bed.. The following is for the author. I hope something can be learned so less garbage can be found on the Internet.

    I am a sociopath. Every individual has a way of viewing the world and sociopaths have a general agreement/approach to things.. Oddly, people enjoy being around those they can relate to and have the same viewpoints. I don’t enjoy being around other sociopaths. In fact, I like the exact opposite. I target the emotional ones because of how much power my words have on them. Don’t get the wrong idea just yet! It purley depends on my objective and every sociopath has a different end game… Howeverrr, every sociopath’s goal has one thing in common. There’s a narcissistic fulfillment.

    The line “The sociopath does not and cannot experience love” is complete bull shit. We have an overwhelming love for ourselves (unless in a depressed or angered state). I remember a few years ago my mother told me her father and my grandfather had died.
    I didn’t feel anything else besides disappointment. I wished I had talked to him more and wished that I could have had an opportunity to have a beer with him in the future. However, I accepted it and moved on with my day. My mother on the other hand become depressed and gained weight.

    From the outside looking in it’s easy for normal people (like the author) to label me as a monster incapable of love.. but fact is I can chose who I do and don’t care about. People come and go all the time, but there is one person that will always be there for me. One person that will never betray me. One person that will never say ‘no’. Thats myself. I and other sociopaths are very narcissistic because of this.

    This being said,

  30. “The sociopath does not and cannot experience love. Unless love to you, means ownership and control?”

    The author must not be a sociopath and thus is only making observations from a select few encounters. The literature is assumption after assumption. Nothing more meaningful than me saying “The boogeyman is under your bed because I had a bad experience as a kid”..
    The following is for the author. I hope something can be learned so less garbage will be found on the Internet.

    I am a sociopath. Every individual has a way of viewing the world and sociopaths have a general agreement/approach to things.. Oddly, people enjoy being around those they can relate to and have the same viewpoints. I don’t enjoy being around other sociopaths. In fact, I like the exact opposite. I target the emotional ones because of how much power my words have on them.
    Don’t get the wrong idea just yet! It purley depends on my objective and every sociopath has a different end game… Howeverrr, every sociopath’s goal has one thing in common. There’s a narcissistic fulfillment.

    The line “The sociopath does not and cannot experience love” is complete bull shit. We have an overwhelming love for ourselves (unless in a depressed or angered state). I remember a few years ago my mother told me her father and my grandfather had died.
    I didn’t feel anything else besides disappointment. I wished I had talked to him more and wished that I could have an opportunity to have a beer with him in the future. However, I accepted it and moved on with my day. My mother on the other hand become depressed and gained weight for months.

    From the ‘outside looking in’ it’s easy for normal people (like the author) to label me as a monster incapable of love.. but the fact is I can chose who I do and don’t care about. People come and go all the time, but there is one person that will always be there for me. One person that will never betray me. One person that will never say ‘no’. Thats myself. I and other sociopaths are very narcissistic because of this.

    This being said.. I am currently in a relationship.

    Now we get to the quote “Unless love to you, means ownership and control”. I admit I don’t necessarily care about my partners like Romeo & Juliet or Bella & Edward. I care about them because of the extreme caring, comfort, sexual and joyful times we share. It’s a relationship about narcissism.. a symbiotic relationship in a way.
    I have picked up many skills, workout and take care of my appearance, I am intelligent, comical AND can be comforting verbaly. I know what to say and what to do if I want a chick to love me… I don’t repeatedly say ‘I love you’ because that would lower the value of those words. I do meaningful things like buy flowers, write poetry, be courteous/polite and kind, be protective, listen to her problems and comfort with my voice… I made her literally fall head over heals ‘in love’ with me in a few weeks. Why? Because life is not enjoyable alone and I want to enjoy life. I am willing to do these things for my mate because in the end I am rewarded with loyalty, comfort, sexual activities and honesty.
    I feel nothing for a stranger on the street. They could get hit by a car right in front of me and I wouldn’t feel a thing… of course I would act the part of a hero to gain respect from others just for self fulfillment… BUT, when I see my mate my heart skips a beat. I am looking at the potential joyful and adventurous experiences I will experience all because of this person. I would do mostly anything to please her because I know she would do the same for me. She becomes part of me and I care about her like I care about myself.

    This is why I like em emotional. They are far more interesting and unpredictable BUT loyal and selfless at the same time.. If these traits start to change they become boring and I simply move on. I have no interest in emotional abuse or cheating, I simply want what’s best for me. If you please me I can guarantee I will give you the world. If not.. You’re just another person in the world.

    Sociopaths are all around you. Some are just more obvious than others, simply means they have not adapted to their surroundings. CEOs, governments, crime lords, religious leaders, law enforcement, family or friends can all be sociopaths. The thing about us is if we want something we usually get it… Because we are not afraid to plan, prep and act…
    What the author DOESN’T UNDERSTAND is that while sociopaths don’t view right/wrong and emotions the same way as others DOESN’T MEAN WE ARE AUTOMATICALLY ATTRACTED TO HARMING OTHERS. It’s possible to have a great relationship with a sociopath. Possibly a better relationship than a normal person!!! But that depends on the sociopath and the other individual in the relationship.

    Everyone experiences love differently. To say sociopaths don’t experience love at all is absurd… Expecially coming from a non sociopath and even more so when psychologist (the Nero-science kind, the true Scientificly correct kind) still don’t know shit about the subject. Sure, some is understood but not remotely close to ‘sociopaths = no love’.

    To the author, please stop throwing out eggs just because one or two were bad.

    1. Hi Code, thank you for your comment. I really appreciate that you took the time to write it.

      My views have changed a lot since I started to write this blog. I will be writing further posts to outline changes that I have seen. When this post was written (probably a year ago?) I did have a different viewpoint.

      What you write here, is what I have also witnessed myself. When I wrote this post, I had known the sociopath in my life, for just over a year. It had been a NIGHTMARE – from start to where I was writing. He never worked, he lied all of the time. Aragh, it was awful. He got me thousands into debt. No, I don’t think in the beginning he cared about me.

      I have known him 2.5 years now – and, while he is still a sociopath, and still behaves like one sometimes, most of the time he treats me really well. Better than anyone else I know. He isn’t conning me, or trying to deceive me. He still tells lies sometimes, and can be hard work sometimes – usually when something kicks in his head that he might lose me out of his life. He values me. We have a lot of common interests (music, travel, adventures) and I well I guess I am not easy … and he realises that he cannot walk all over me. I keep his mind occupied. I think. As I am constantly changing, and I love adventures and doing random things, so life isn’t really boring.

      I know that you say that ‘it is possible to have a great relationship with a sociopath’ I would add… ‘if you are doing things their way. Now if the sociopath thought that they were going to lose you, or worse that you would dare leave them for someone else… things would KICK OFF… big time. All hell would break loose. I see what you are saying – about seeing your partner as part of you. The problem comes because you do see them as part of you, if that person tried to leave. You would go crazy, you don’t see that she has rights of her own. That she isn’t owned by you. This is a difficult concept for sociopaths to understand.

    2. May I just say, you say you’re intelligent yet half the shit that gurgled out of your fingertips just then made no logical sense.
      Although, I do agree with your overall point, so who am I to complain?

  31. I am still trying to figure out what they feel. Dated for 18 months, my sociopath bf told me he doesn’t want to marry me because he wants children and our backgrounds are too different. He found someone he wants to marry but still maintain me for sex and support. He calls it emotional bonds, not love, and sex addiction and he will overcome it like he has overcome his drug problems. He knows that there is a serious problem with himself and he seems to struggle against his sexual behavior and he believes one day he will overcome it. He has all the checklist symptoms and everyday with him was chaotic and confusing but I miss him when he is not around. He would visit his girlfriend in another city and come home to me for sex. He would be distant for few days and stuck with me-very unstable. During a period of time (month 4 to month 10) he would criticize me everyday and I tried hard to understand what he actually wanted. Now I see that it was an attempt to control me or he wanted a certain reaction from me. Totally unable to realistically plan his life and has been a parasite for years with 4 other girlfriends, I wonder what lies ahead. I am trying to reach a point of no contact but seem impossible for now.

    1. He may be a sociopath but the main problem I see with tonnes of people, is that the people that they call “sociopaths” aren’t even diagnosed. So how do you know for sure that they are a sociopath, just if you have an argument I beleive anyone can display signs like a sociopath doesn’t actually make them one. Although for an odd reason us sociopaths crave anything that gives us pleasure. Sex, addictions to dumb little things like diet coke or cigarettes, for some selfish reason we just can’t stop and he probably doesn’t understand that he is hurting your feelings. I’m being honest most sociopaths can rarely experience empathy and our sympathy is just toned down a bit but we don’t always hurt others for pleasure. Which is the big and most common lie about us, but hey everyone is different just like every sociopath is different and maybe he’s a sadist? I’d say get away from that because a sadistic sociopath is as good as a psychopath. (Not saying anything bad against psychopaths though).

  32. Interesting perspective, but I mostly disagree. There is nothing wrong with wanting ownership for the one loved, nor do I see why the need for supply is reserved to sociopaths! My goodness, I am not a sociopath and I still want to think I “own” to a certain degree the heart I love and that she also owns me. As an old fashion sort of man, I believe my potential love should expect me to supply her with all her needs.
    I also disagree to generalize sociopaths as uncapable of genuine love.
    Even if this would be the case, you give a rundown of all the efforts and gifts that make a life wonderful, fake or not. Who cares if both parties are good for each other?
    I find so called “normal” people boring as hell. Sociopath or not, I seek someone I love and cherish — and for whom my love is a security and place of happiness.

  33. My boyfriend tells me he is a sociopath. And for many reasons I believe that, except the no love one. He’s had serious relationships in the past, and also tons of not so serious ones. I don’t believe he’s incapable of loving, it’s just very hard, like I’ve seen other comments point out, he can only get close with a select few people. It just takes someone you really connect with. I know he actually enjoys being with me because he can’t stand most people for more than a few hours, when we spend days on end together. It’s just rare. If he’s a sociopath so what, I’ve never been happier.

    1. Lets hope you never want to leave him notallarebad – unless he wants to lose you. Even then even if he didn’t care about losing you, he might ruin and destroy you, so that nobody else would want you. They like to do that too. Just for fun. Because they can.

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