This site, is written for the benefit of victims, not sociopaths. However, sociopaths do read and sometimes comment on this site. Personally as long as there are no personal attacks, this is fine with me. After all, a sociopath will show themselves and how they think and feel quite clearly. This too, is learning, and knowledge is power. The truth will help to set you free.
Recently over the last couple of months, I have had quite a lot of complaints about my post where I wrote that sociopaths cannot love. I have re-read the post, and I still think that there is a lot of truth there. However, yet more comments (and email) are sent saying that this viewpoint is wrong, and is damaging? (which is kind of ironic that sociopaths can complain about what is ‘damaging’ :).. moral outrage at it’s finest huh?
You can read the original I love you page and comments here https://datingasociopath.com/sociopath-character-traits/cunning-and-manipulative/i-love-you/
I am going to post the comments here. These are comments from sociopaths who maintain that they CAN love, and that I am wrong. I would be interested in your thoughts, should I change this post? Am I wrong to assume that the sociopath cannot love? I struggle to understand how ‘control’ can equate to ‘love’.
Sociopath (s) ‘moral outrage’ comments on this post! (I apologise if they are not being in order – this is wordpress)
I think that this is a very inaccurate description of what dating a sociopath is like. Sociopaths can, in fact, experience love. It is different for everyone and to write about such a stigmatized disorder in this way is harmful.
Although the psychopathic traits mentioned here can very easily and lead to dangerous levels of manipulation, they don’t have to.
With tremendous effort we can manage it. I’m now seen as someone of intense understanding and observation with a keen strategic instinct.
I know where those traits come from, yet I’ve made the conscious choice to use them for the betterment of friends, acquaintances, and society.
People confide in me extraordinary things because they know, no matter what, I will not be judging them.
It’s true that I don’t “feel” guilt or remorse, except to the extent that it affects me directly, but I do feel other emotions, which don’t have proper words of description, but nevertheless cause me to derive satisfaction in developing interpersonal relationships, contributing to society, and being gentle as well as decisive.
Because I’m in a foul mood I am going to comment on something that’s none of my business. You conveniently “forget” that teenage girls commonly share secrets with their “besties” and when they get into arguments suddenly the whole school knows that one of them went behind the bleachers with someone. Don’t pull that crap, because you know very well that empaths are just as capable of betraying trust.
Obviously you don’t have anymore come backs or an original thought in your head. You only think about what society has spoon-fed you to believe and you blindly accept just like some “Christians” believe the Bible that men wrote regardless of what Jesus actually preached and practiced. It’s pathetic and sad, to be honest I think that’s why you quit responding to me because you knew that any person who took a step back and had an unbiased opinion would see that the truth is not what you try to convince people it is.
You are scared to admit that a soiciopath is not as monstrous as people would like to believe. You with sociopaths, racist people in the mid-1900′s with blacks, and “Christians” today with homosexuals, all the same because yall were/are so afraid to admit that just because someone is noticeably different than you are doesn’t mean that they are evil, bad, wrong, a blight on society, whatever the hell small-minded people like yall believe. People with the mentality such as that are truly what holds society back and keeps us from advancing and becoming a more productive and unified people.
Everybody contributes in their own way and a sociopaths contribution when applied is more beneficial to the community as a while than many empaths contributions. You really aren’t worth continuing a conversation with because your emotions on the subject cause such a handicap to you it makes me forget I’m speaking with someone older than 5. Even children quit believing Santa is real when they open their eyes some and realize their parents have been lying to them for so many years. I have to say that I don’t believe you will ever get to that point. Your eyes are sewn shut so tightly to the truth that you will always be a few steps behind.
The fact that you truly believe your own OPINIONS is ridiculous. Sociopaths are capable of a deeper love than “normal” people. We do mold ourselves to become what our partner needs but they will never have to want for affection, time, comfort, or fidelity.
The majority of sociopaths are the most protective,loyal, and stable people you will meet despite our impulsiveness. When you meet a TRUE sociopath and not someone begging for attention claiming they are one then you will come to understand that our lack of emotions is in fact an advantage throughout our lives. I would move Heaven, Earth, and travel through Hell to provide for my loved ones and be the man they need me to be.
Regardless of laws or hurting peoples feelings we do what is more beneficial for us. I will never place my girlfriend above myself but I don’t hesitate to place her or her kids above even my blood relatives. It benefits me to have her in my life because she provides what I crave most.
Unlike many with emotions my wants and desires don’t revolve around physical appearance in my spouse. True, I am amazing in bed and I love the power it gives me over a person, but what I enjoy is lying there having a conversation when it’s over and seeing their raw emotions.
Fact of the matter is I can go into great detail about how wrong you and your beliefs are, but I have more pressing matters to attend to. I had to educate the people who read this page and believe this bullshit you claim as science is a farce.
That is a Sterotype, just like ALL white people are racist. ALL Arabs are terrorists. So on and so forth. Some may very well be exactly as u describe them. I am not. I have had women leave me, and to this day they are some of my good friends. No sex or games just open honesty and communication. They see the real me, have seen my emptiness when others aren’t around and still love and accept me. The women that I love say they are safer when around me because they know I will go to any lengths to protect them.
I may be manipulative and controlling but I never lie and I don’t go out of my way to hurt someone because we have a difference of opinion or they can no longer handle being in a relationship with me. Much of what you have experienced is sad and it’s a shame that you met someone who reinforces that stereotype. Rest assured though that not all of us are like that.
Umm lying to soneone isn’t love. Deceiving someone isn’t love. Your definition of love is different to mine.
Do you think being manipulative and controlling is being loving? That to me is ownership and possession.
Why do people have selective hearing/reading. I said I do NOT lie. I am honest to fault and some people can’t handle that but one thing I will never be is a liar. I do mirror the women I have dated and been several different personalities with several different people at the same time to fit their needs.
I try to manipulate my girlfriend but she sees right through it and I admire that. She calls me out when I say things to try to get my way and stands her ground.
This woman has changed my views on marriage and spending a lifetime with someone. I have found someone who strengthens and empowers me while at the same time she is my one weakness. I have told her what my love for her means and she understands it, yet somehow she is not scared of it. As twisted as my mind is allows me to be objective.
My current year long relationship is the most stable and pure thing that I have ever experienced. The fact that she is married with 3 kids and there’s a 10yr age difference doesn’t affect the fact that we accept each other and our situation and still love each other.
Think what you want, it only sheds light on your ignorance. It’s no different than assuming I’m a terrorist because I’m an Arab. You are truly simple-minded and I pity you. I’ve told her I will be the death of her, I don’t try to hide my insanity with her because there’s no NEED to. Also when she broke up with me in August I may have tried to manipulate her to get back with me, but I would never jeopardize her relationship with her husband. I have her and her children’s social security numbers, bank acct info, email and social networking passwords, etc. Doesn’t mean I would ever use them to hurt her and she knows that.
I like that she trusts me and I have no intention of ruining that. Think what you want, doesn’t change the fact that you don’t know me. The people who do, know who I choose to be. Judge all you want it doesn’t offend me, I get a good laugh out of people’s simplicity and ignorance. It proves that there are more inferior people in this world than yall would like to admit.
(At this point, i am alarmed that he has collected personal details about her children, and tell him so, and remind how this is NOT love)
Think what you want. I know the truth about myself. I have her info because I am good with numbers I didn’t go out of my way to memorize them but I looked at them and I have a photo image of them in my brain. I would never hurt her or jeopardize her marriage or relationship with her children.
You ASSUME I will because you want so badly to believe I am evil. Everything you just described would make for a horrible B horror movie, but it is nowhere close to the truth about me. Bottom line is I will always do what is logical and beneficial to me. I know she loves me (I don’t know WHY). I know that she doesn’t expect anything from me even when my true colors have shown she grounds me. She cooks for me. She pushes me to better myself. There is no reason I would want to hurt her. Even if she walked away from me we both know she can’t STAY away. There would be no point in ruining her life because when she comes back I will be the one having to fix the mess I made. It’s not logical to do what you claim I can’t help but do. Yes I CAN ruin her whole family. WOULD I? Never in a million years. I don’t like when she’s upset. I’m obligated to comfort her and fix the problem, if I’m the cause of that problem then that causes extra problems for me. Why would I do that? Do you even listen to what comes out your mouth? Do you realize how much sense that does NOT make? I love her in my own sick and twisted way.
I enjoy the emotional hold I have on some of the women in my life and I wouldn’t like if they left my life, but with HER I shut down. I wasn’t sure who I was supposed to be anymore. As pathetic as it makes me I am somewhat dependant on her. I gladly do anything she asks or needs of me so I don’t have to go through that again. I went downhill without her in my life. I had money sitting in the bank because I wasn’t eating or going out, I was working insane hours to kill time. When she came back to me she was upset that I had “let myself go”. I’ve never needed to be around someone as badly as I do her and vice versa. She is my addiction. I would kill for her. She will be the death of me or I will be the death of her.
This may not fit your definition of love, but it’s exactly what both she and I have been searching for our whole lives. I have no illusion of being perfect, sane, or normal, but she is everything I am NOT and at the same time compliments the characteristics that I value in myself. I don’t see how this should be a cause for concern if we both know each other and accept that it’s not a “normal” relationship.
I trust her with information that can put a needle in my arm, she trusts that I would never do anything to hurt her.
To me this is a fine arrangement. How can you dispute love just because it doesn’t fit your definition of white gowns and church every sunday? The love, passion and everything else that defines a relationship is there.
Actually I take that back, I won’t fabricate something out of thin air but out of convenience I will shorten things and cut out what I consider irrelevant information. Example: Complete truth is the woman who raised me wasn’t my biological mother so I have 3 older siblings who only share part of my blood but i was raised with them, the other 7 are my half-siblings by my father and i rarely get to see them. That’s too much information to give on a first date so i simply say “I’m one of eleven kids”. I don’t consider things like that a lie though, it’s just a very condensed version of the whole truth.
To John Orona, I just wanted to say thank you. I’ve just recently discovered that I’m a sociopath, and when I tried to research this particular subject, the only thing that I found was the typical stereotype that a sociopath is just a bad person. I’m glad to see that there are other sociopaths like me that don’t fall on that ridiculous stereotype.
I agree. I’m a diagnosed sociopath, and I found this article rather offensive. I have a family that I love dearly, honeslty – dear author, find my “source of supply” with them?
My bet your model will “True-Scot’s” fallacy before you can find an explanation.
I wanted to publish this, as I know that the question is often asked, ‘did the sociopath love me’ I think that especially John’s comments are enlightening about a sociopath mind, how they think.
Is this what love is to you? It isn’t for me. I honestly found the fact that he had memorised her childrens (she is married to someone else) personal details, facebook and email password, social security number, bank account details alarming. Is this love? No, this is storing information, ‘just in case’ for when he needs to reign back in the control, in case she tries to leave him.
This to me, is not love. ( I have only published the sociopaths comments, you can read my responses and others on the page itself. It would have made this post too long)
What are your thoughts?
Copyright datingasociopath.com 2014
205 thoughts on “Can sociopaths love? – Part 2 – The sociopaths response!”
I haven’t read it all but feel the need to comment.
Bulkshit. They are liars. They will say whatever it takes to look good. Even if they truly believe what they are saying, that will change the moment their “loved” ones are no longer useful to them.
How dum are they to expect this to believe any different? There are hundreds of women/men on here telling the truth that actions speak louder than words… I don’t see any empaths saying how fantastic their sociopath is. No the idiots are just so full of themselves that they believe they are the best thing for them. They are not.
Love is unconditional. That is real love. They CAN NOT COMPREHEND THIS. They will never know what that is. If they did, they wouldn’t be sociopaths.
Bloody egotistical, arrogant and self serving. If they really love their partner/family, then they are not a full bl
I have to admit that I was confused, at the repeated claims by John that he didn’t tell lies. This did confuse me. How many sociopaths don’t tell lies?
Was it you who was with a police officer who was the socio? There is a lady who has had her daughter removed by her ex who is a police officer, and is going through hell right now. I was going to send you the link to her site.
I think it is possible for some not to tell lies and for some not to cheat. Mine was definitely a liar but I’m not 100% sure he cheated on me. Maybe 99% sure. I think while he idealised me he was faithful but after I came off the pedastool all bets were off and he probably no longer saw this as being unfaithful as the relationship was probably already over in his eyes. He was just making me pay after that.
What amazes me is how that he/they believe we are being unjust after the way we have been treated and lied too. Comparing us to racists. Is it racist to condem physical abusers? We are condemning emotional abusers who all follow the same pattern … Eventually. He maybe on his high horse right now because he thinks he loves this woman but wait till she does something that really pisses him off… Let’s see what happens then. Or when the honeymoon period is over … But that’s different because he no longer loved her then. Um John, love is not the honeymoon period. It’s what happens once all that excitement dies down.
My ex didn’t cheat either. But he did tell lies. Even when he tried not to tell lies, it wouldn’t be long before the lies started again. I just grew used to half listening. I thought I might as well half listen, as I was probably only getting half the truth.
I would like to understand how he can be multiple different personalities, at the same time, for different people and accomplish all of that without lying. Impossible.
His arrogant, supposed superiority seeps out of his messages like muck.
To AGPTday 🙂
Sociopath/Covert narcissist or overt but, more than likely the whole shebang like I got!
‘The Covert Narcissist is more likely to push their grandiosity through a subtle detached pose where they “drop” information that garners admiration and acclaim, but also with a controlling detached air that is designed to induce inferiority and envy in the listeners, thus reinforcing the grandiosity of the narcissist.’
Love & Light 🙂
I know… I remember I often used to say, but not ALL of those statements can possibly true. one of them has to be a lie? … he would get really mad with me. Try to deflect change the subject, or rant about something I or someone else had done 🙂
Lies, Lies and more lies. I think their commenting just reassures what you have written before about them being unable to ever admit they are wrong. They believe their own lies and it’s almost like an animal instinct they way they continue to manipulate. Robotic in a way even.
I agree! They are mechanical liars to the 15th power, squared by 10, trine by 11 degrees due west of bubble fuck castle, with a freak node just south of hell. Sorry for my analysis, but I hate sociopaths/psychopaths/and narcs. They disgust the living shit outta me so I make jokes about how truly comical they are. Completely doofy assholes with a fantasy!
Hahaha! It’s all about finding the humor in it!
Hi Bluegal 🙂
Ditto the degree’s etc…they are ‘kooky la la’ from the ‘planets of the Soc Apes’ LOL
When you really sit down & ‘get it’, they truly are very comical as mine literally thinks he’s ‘James Bond’, my little roly poly covert Narc/Soc that thinks he’s got everyone fooled 😉
Ah & he wears a ‘Fire Man’ uniform to play the ‘hero’ to it’s fullest!
The only thing he put’s out is ‘my fire’, I’m soaked with tears of Joy at finding my freedom 🙂
I don’t know if my character was ‘Honey Ryder’ or ‘Pussy Galore’ LOL 😉
He’s with the very wealthy ‘Money Penny’ so, can’t wait til all those pennies drop!
Did you have a look at the link I sent you re Covert Narc’s?
Love & Light 🙂
Yes I did! Very good read. The only thing I’m not in agreement with in this article, is it seems to predicate that these people are made and not born. I’m on the side of error that believes they are born, just my own observations; his mother, his brother(was born as a result of incest bwtn his father and his fathers 1st cousin) and his sister all display the some sort of axis II type of character. But yeah, he’s covert to the max, ruthless and relentless to try and hurt me. It’s a good thing that my facts in divorce are in my favor to rake coals over his ass and get alimony that will kick his narc ass:) for that I’m very grateful. The rest of his sorry life can kiss my shiny plastic ass
Hi MM 😃
Is your bottom plastic 😜?
Mine butt is going to the gym 3 times a week so, isn’t sliding down anymore 😁
I got the Charismatic Socio/Covert Narc so, very devious to say the least!
Do you have children with him?
My Soc’s ex took him to the cleaners so, he set about ruining her via his asult children as ‘payback’.
He’s only just recently divorced her after 35 years. He made sure to move his accomplice (adult son) in with his ex to sabotage her future relationships etc…he knows her every move & I don’t think she even realises this?
His daughter also plays the game so, a bit like the Addams Family, kooky & creepy 😜
My Soc collects Royal Doulton Lady figurines & nearly had a massive tantrum when the ex sold some on Ebay 😃
His son collects ‘Predator’ figurines as has them displayed at his mothers house! 😱
Can you imagine what that must be like after a few vino’s 👽💀👹
I wonder if they eat Friut Loops for breakfast 😁
Love & Light 😃❤️️
PR you’re definitely Pussy Galore ;p
Wish your comment had a “Like” button. I agree completely!
I’m just going to leave this here.
😦 This comment makes me sad.
It’s not even that you’re wrong. I think you’re right. But the thing is that many of us really don’t MEAN to be that way. I don’t empathize with other people. I do often fake empathy and emotional responses, but it’s not all about maintaining an image and using others. I genuinely want people to be happy. I don’t want others to suffer. I don’t want it as strongly as someone who actually understands emotions like empathy and guilt, I’m sure, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to act any differently than they would most of the time. When I do manipulate people, I honestly don’t notice that I’m doing it. I used to tell everyone that I hate liars and that I never lie, because I honestly believed this to be true. Maybe I’m not the typical sociopath, but lying actually makes me very uncomfortable and I prefer to tell the truth.
Why would I do this when I don’t understand empathy or feel remorse? I guess because everyone else on this planet seems to think it’s so important to act this way, and disagreeing with that philosophy seems akin to a blind person arguing that illustration serves no purpose. I don’t know. Screwing people over is just as easy as not screwing people over…I mean I literally can’t tell the difference sometimes. But I try to remain transparent, and if I’m telling a friend a story and they end with, “Dude…that’s messed up,” then I won’t do that thing again.
And I don’t know if I’m capable of feeling love, but I have felt an emotion that I’ve always thought was love. Maybe I’m being too optimistic thinking I can develop a sense of empathy, but it’s pretty much the only thing that makes me care about my own life.
As long as your happy and don’t screw others over for your own gain Alex, what is the problem? It is when people are deceived and manipulated for your own gain that it can caused deep psychological damage (to others) betrayal always comes from someone you care about unfortunately and it can damage someone for a long time after you have moved on.
I know. i am married one..
I don’t love like you do, and I wouldn’t describe it as love, its a feeling you’ll never experience and can’t relate to, just as I can’t relate to the love that you experience.
My form of love is a feeling of admiration. I look upon my love interests as ideals, and I can mirror them back to themselves. I become them for a little while. Sometimes I forget that I am no one. I don’t have an identity so I’ll immerse myself in them, and i can easily forget that it’s all a facade. I’m forever searching for a purpose or identity and for a brief period i have one in them. I usually go for the mentally unstable, those in desperate need of someone. I’ve been told on several occasions that I arrived just at the right time and that I saved them in a way.
My love is a form of protection. I’ve taken care of a few threats to my love interests. In high school the group of kids bullying him got expelled for drugs planted in their locker. It made me mad when things hurt him. He was my little mouse, too frail to protect himself from the world, and I had to do it for him. In return, he bought me things, amused me, and had amazing sex. He was really mentally unstable, more so than any other mouse I’ve encountered. I had to save him from suicide on more than a few occasions, and I was only the cause sometimes. On some days he couldn’t get out of bed and I tried to help him. I protected him from himself quite a lot. I wasn’t inherently good or evil. I never hurt him physically. I yelled very little, and we didn’t fight much. I didn’t cheat that much, maybe once or twice and he never found out about it.
When he left i was angry. Usually I’m the one to break it off and I have no idea why he did. I think he saw through me. There was no fighting or anything before he just wandered off. It hit me hard though. I had to lose the identity i created and realize that i was no one again. I was really bummed for about 2 months, and then i just blended back in and created a new identity all by myself.
It’s really odd that I compare him to a mouse I just realized. I used to torture mice when I was bored, and that’s kind of what this was, except he didn’t die and we both benefited somehow.
Still, a lot of the posts on this website piss me off, but it helps me understand the mice a bit more. Although some things are just plain rude. We’re not monsters like you say we are, we can do monstrous things, but so can you.
By the way, I’m a woman. The ‘only men can be sociopaths’ viewpoint is stupid and shows some fucked up double standards.
Who is saying that only men can be sociopaths?
I am a woman too.
No, I don’t think you should change the post.
All I know is that sociopaths experience love differently than others do. It is more co-dependent.
PS – “Even if she walked away from me we both know she can’t STAY away.” Sociopathic hold. Very scary in my opinion.
Yes, and where he says either I will be the death of her, or she will be the death of me….
I found the most alarming how he had memorized her childrens personal information, bank account, social security numbers, and facebook and email passwords. That is really scary too…
It was odd, as the comments were coming in, I thought when he said I have found someone I want to settle down with and when he mentioned marriage, I thought – maybe I have it wrong then? Then I read further comments, and it was someone else’s wife.
I think you are right Nadia, about the co-dependence. Which is why they cannot be alone and often go from one person to the next, before they have left the first (and then boomerang back if that goes wrong).
I think my ex soc thought he loved me for the first 7 months – but his understanding of love is completely conditional and on lust and ownership. Once he realised I wasn’t perfect, then the rest of the manipulation, gas lighting, destruction etc started. I wonder how long it will take John to change his tune about her?
The others seem young. It also goes to show their complete lack of understanding of what love is. And what us normal people want in a relationship. As his “partner” is already married, she’s using him herself for something her husband isn’t giving her and therefore can survive on whatever he is giving her.
Wanting to protect what you have is not love. I want to protect my car but I don’t love it. Not in the sense of being in love. I love my iPhone, but I wouldn’t give my life for it. I would however for some one I loved.
They just don’t get it.
It got the impression his lover is a bit of a sociopath also, a la Dexter and Hannah.
I honestly believe he lied about having her personal information to make himself look good. Remember SPs lie,so I wouldn’t be surprised if that was one of them. Why would he openly post that he had all her information after she was married? You would think that she moved on after dealing with him. For all we know, she may have all his information!! But seriously, that would be scary if he really did have her info. People like that need to know you can always change your name, SS#, etc. So its a waste of your time and life to do all that. I know if he had my information he would be sad and I wouldn’t mind changing my name!
The thing is that you could spend your life thinking of why he does things – truthfully half the time he doesn’t know either. Or if he does it is a calculated move for his own benefit.
Excuse typos. I was angry and in my iPhone. My bad.
Lol, IID 🙂
I make mistakes too but, after lol & OMG & WTF, I just assume everyone ‘gets it’ anyhow 🙂
Make no excuses for being angry or being anything, it’s a typographical world, full of mistakes 😉 ROTFL 🙂
Yes, I am the person that thought LOL meant Lots of Love!
Yep, sent it after some bad news 😉
So, on that note, you have better be feeling better my friend 🙂
Love & Light 🙂
OMG did you?? (re::LOL) that is funny…
How else do you think I find out things, the hard way LOL 🙂
Hmmm, no sleep?
I am eating M&M’s & having a cuppa & cleaning the bathroom with Vanessa Amorossi blaring 🙂
Love PR xoxo 😉
This will make you laugh 🙂
A few years ago, I was shopping in my local supermarket & was browsing the cleaning products when I was approached by a severely disabled young man with a terrible stutter 😦
Fa,fa,fa….he was trying to tell me something so, I leaned in closer.
Fa Fa Five, five five dollars please,
Me. “oh I’m sorry but, I don’t have five dollars on me’.
I would have given it to him if I did though 🙂
Fa fa fa ….I’m thinking ‘Thankyou’….Fa fa Fuck-off you bitch!!!!!
OMG, I was horrified & said, ‘ohhhh! You awful disabled (yep disabled) boy! OH!
He started ramming my shopping trolley with his walking frame & I was holding him off when another lady came into the isle.
She told me off for harassing ‘the horrible disable boy’ as I called him.
I tried to tell her while she consoled him that he swore at me ;(
I raced off & could hear him coming along with his frame, ‘Clunk,clunk’ like in a horror movie so, I sped up my shopping & raced to the checkout.
The woman was there, glaring at me!
I nearly peed my pant’s later as it was so, funny & even the Soc thought it was hilarious 😉
So, Fa fa fankyou! LOL….
Yes, my friend texted me that her marriage was over & I sent LOL back & she said ‘thanks for that’ & I texted back, ‘your welcome’….we sorted it out & laughed out loud 🙂
ROTFLMAO!! That was a hilarious story:)!!!
I couldn’t even finish reading those letters. One of them sounds just like my x SOCIOPATH. Notice how one of the spaths said “It will be guilt for ME” ME ME ME ME ME. That’s how my x was. He would show remorse,but it was about how HE felt shame. yuk!
LOL PR you should write a book!
First up, as stated on a segment on the talk show The View, a self admitted, brain analyzed Psychopath who’s a bonafide doctor, explained the differences between psychopaths and sociopaths. Sociopaths are made not born so they do have the capacity to feel “something however fleeting the emotion may be” so they do feel, but for short burst of time and it doesn’t last. Now onto the real ding dongs, the psychopaths, they feel absolutely nothing, and mimic behavior to appear as if they feel something in order to blend in so they don’t look like freaks of society, but DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY NOR NEUROLOGICAL WIRING TO FEEL ANYTHING. So in my opinion the one who can’t feel but mimics is the real danger society and never falls in love at all, just falls in “what can I get out of this person for now and what role do I need to fake to play” trick.
Bloody typos 😜adult children but, actually not really adult behavior! Lol
I also believe that some are born & some are made.
Needless to say, wish they’d throw the molds away, never to be made or created again!
I agree 100% !Anyone who has experienced the pain that they cause would agree they need to all be locked up in a room together and they can annoy and degrate each other! Lol.
Holy moly! I didn’t even read the entire thing because I was getting so angry.
I have read that with intensive therapy and effort on their part a SP can control their urges, but they will never feel things like the rest of us do. My SP was incapable of telling the truth, holding a job, showing comfort or compassion, being monogamous, etc. He left me emotional bereft, financially ruined and continued to want more even after I walked away.
In my humble opinion, that is not love. So, if you are a SP and you are reading this and disagree, you have that right. Just as I have the right to respectfully disagree with you.
i love coffeelovas’ reply bout puttin them all in one room. . . jajaj.
and to lost2camelot, i feel you on the ruined and continued to want more even after. ..
These mo’fos are scary. .
Keep the post. “John” is SCARY!!!! You should seriously consider reporting him. He’s going to hurt that woman and her family. By the way he uses “yall” that let’s me know he’s probably a “southern” American. I’m one myself, so I can say that with certainty. Positive Girl ~ you just keep on, keep on; sister!
I found it scary too Kim.
What is most alarming – is that he probably cant see ‘why’ it is scary. He just sees it as ‘love’
He says that he ‘loves’ her, yet he memorizes her children’s information (to threaten to use no doubt at a later date should she choose to leave him). And she entrusted him to go through her computer – so who knows what information he has that could later be used against her.
I guess you can also read between the lines of those comments? He said that he has taken life – whether that meant murder, or in the military, I don’t know. And he said that she will either be the death of him, or he will be the death of her.
Kim, what I read was the ya ll was a slam or attempt to degrade us readers so he felt empowered.True Soc tactic for sure!
The sociopaths commenting, to me should beware that the truth needs no justification, and that when their processing their dieing love for their loveones their sticking the knife in thay back. Sick monsters.
Excuse type error angry and discussed they are so, full of it and the Bible does mention these evil people seried conscious that’s who they are and will always be.
I do not have the time to respond to individual objections, but I wanted to say something very general that should help everyone classify potential objections from these self-described sociopaths:
The objections provided fall into one of the categories below:
1. Denial: This objection comes from a sociopath in denial, that is, a genuine sociopath is denying that his or her behavior is as bad as non-sociopaths believe it to be. This is different than deceit (see 2) because in this case the sociopath is in a state of self-deception about the truth as his or her own conduct.
2. Deceit: This objection comes from genuine sociopath who knows that he or she is as bad as we claim but nonetheless insists that we are wrong. This sociopath is just intentionally playing games.
3. Error: This objection comes from a genuine sociopath who actually fails to understand the boundaries of a concept – for instance, the concept of love or loyalty. Though this is rare, I’ve met low-functioning sociopaths who actually don’t understand the concept or behavior under discussion. This is hard to distinguish from denial, but easy to distinguish from deceit. If a sociopath is trying to deceive you, they will be calm; denial or error will send them into a bout of frustration and they may even become unhinged.
4. Category mistake: This objection comes from someone who is NOT a genuine sociopath. Such a person may have sociopath tendencies, but is not actually a being that lacks a conscience or the ability to love. As to why such people identify themselves as sociopaths, there are a number of reasons rooted in ordinary psychological conditions brought about by environmental factors and traumatic life events.
Brilliant comment, and lots to think about. How do you know this? This is really interesting. Thank you!!
Thanks for the kind words Positivagirl.
I think everyone is familiar with deceit as a sociopath strategy. Denial and Error were two unusual things I saw my ex sociopath engage in.
Take Denial for instance. A lot of people who study sociopathy (as opposed to recovering from a relationship with a sociopath) don’t get a chance to see that social norms actually do place some pressure on sociopaths internally, that is, they want to, as long as possible, see their own behavior as “not so bad”. This is especially true for sociopaths raised in conformist cultures where group membership and normalcy are of paramount importance.
As for Error, this is a very interesting phenomenon among sociopaths. They often actually don’t know what ordinary people (those with a conscience, and capable of love) mean when they say, for instance, “You could not possibly be a true friend if you act like X or Y” because the concept of friendship is something they have to model – because feelings of closeness, loyalty, fealty and the like are so foreign to them, anything beyond the mere tit for tat exchange needs to be cognitively modeled by them. And if you’re dealing with a dim witted sociopath, well, they sometimes are just too dumb to actually know that they’re not behaving in accordance with the dictates of friendship, love, etc.
As for the Category Mistake, it’s just human nature for some normal people with fringe behaviors and feelings to raise their hand and claim to be weird/disturbed/special in some way.
Very very well said. Spot on. 👍
Thank you for this post it is very informative & helpful– ill take every tool I can find to protect myself & be able to identify quicker should I happen across another soc — and my own vulnerability as possible target — no more thanks to the wisdom shared here– and to read soc post gives me a better idea of their thinking patterns & patterns in general.
His crazy delusional love as always , in the first stage before they use what they know to break us down emotionally, physically and mentally. At first you think he lives with her and has been for years but slowly he then states she is married and then deliberately leaves outvhow long it has been going on. All sounds pretty weird set up anyway, makes me wonder if she is also a sociopath . My sociopath found another sociopath who took what she wanted gave lipservice but did not want to let go , like true sociopaths they kept accepting the others infidelity and knew it was lies but they did not care. Sounds like this man and his married friend.
Unfortunately most people respect peoples privacy and will not say the personal info he is saying about his wonderful partner. I learnt that sociopaths go the extra mile to convince us of their GOODNESS. When I read what he said about her personal information , I thought that was just like my ex. Promising on his childrens lives, he was telling the truth. Who really says that !! Not normal people. Which ever they tdy to rationalise it to themselves, they hurt people for thdir own benefit and needs and turn lives into complete mayhem.
I have been with a sociopath for 11 years, I knew him better than he knew himself. I learnt all his ways, these people devaste lives for FUN BECAUSE THEY CAN !!!!!!
OMG, mine also promised on his children’s lives! Then when he realised he’d lost control of me he tried to take it back and broke his promise.
Mine did the ‘I promise on the lives of my children’ etc…something I would never do regardless of the scenario.
My children are the love of my life so, I don’t make promises on their heads, I don’t need too 🙂
They mean too much to me to promise them to anyone or to cover a lie.
I would never tell such a ‘whopper’ that this kind of promise would result in anyway!
I have never heard anyone even say that until the Soc so, another pattern as usual & a ploy to continue the game!
I’m still reading your link (while watching tv hence the time its taking) and OMG, seriously, he is completely and absolutely one of these f##£ers.
i also suspected a guy at work who started mentoring me and who also I told all about my soon to be ex and then my discovery that he was a sociopath post break up. As I started to learn more about this disorder, I started to suspect him as a narcissist. I now think he was instrumental in my losing my job. Particularly as I think he knew I was on to him. As I’m reading this I’m now much more sure if all this. There are many many things that indicate to me my suspicions on this are spot on.
I have learnt much about life love and business in this past 8 months.
Onward and upward.
Thanks for this link and also the one you posted a few weeks ago to me as well. I have found both fascinating and informative.
Goodnight my friend in Sydney, glad to help anytime 😃
Love PR xoxo
Thank you. I had similar thoughts.
When i was reading, I did actually think, oh, maybe I do have it wrong? … when he was saying that she had taught him so much about marriage, and spending the rest of his life with someone (I assumed, that this meant he had married and setttled down)… 🙂
Then I realised that that her marriage was to someone else.
Perhaps this is what he meant when he said that it works? Maybe it does (from his viewpoint). She can’t leave him – as if she did, he would destroy her world, and she would have nothing?
I wonder what her story is? If she is safe, or feels safe. I also wondered what he meant when he said that manipulated her, when they split in August to get her back?
Sociopaths do love to constantly remind you how good they are…. It is common to say ‘I swear on my child’s life’ when telling lies…. Like they expect that nobody would possibly suspect that they are telling lies if they swear on a child’s life.
It’s so immoral, its difficult to understand. But also useful I think, if anyone is in any doubt what the love looks like, I think that this is a good example.
Perhaps it is love – as they see it. It just isn’t love as we see it – and no doubt the way that it is sold to her – is likely sold dressed up with a red ribbon. The sanitized version of the truth.
He said that he didn’t lie – but admitted that he left out parts of the truth. Being economical with the truth, is to me, the same as lying as it is being manipulative and deliberately misleading someone. That is how I read it anyway?
They don’t do it because they can, they do it because unsuspecting people allow it because they don’t know any better. My psychopath went onto take on a malignant narc as his new gf after I field goaled his lying, cheating, filthy, disgusting ass out the door for the last time. This dumb cross eyed broad is so dumb and will do anything for him. And yes, they both screw anything that moves and both know each other does it, but he’s blatantly told her he doesn’t care who she screws. I’m shocked she hasn’t gone into narc rage over that. She’s threatened me a few times behind my back to kick my ass, but has yet to anti up. They do things on the sly because they are too punk ass to come IRL, so they manufacture things, expect a reaction from you, this way it makes you look crazy. Best way to fuck up the head of psychopath/sociopath is simply don’t react at all. If they feed off attention, don’t feed the fucking animals by giving them any. It’s the best lesson I learned from this site and others and the most true to life advice I’d ever had. It works!! And it’s fun watching them squirm in their own shit:)!!
I am surprised that a socio doesn’t care who their partner is sleeping with. They usually own their partner, lock stock and barrel, and have full control over their life, while keeping their own absolutely private.
She’s an idiot. She’ll do anything for him which means it’s less he has to do. She’s an old HS gf and who still lives at home with her mother at 47 years old, unemployed, has a daughter in her 20’s that she berates(typical malignant narc mom) she just has a desparate need for attention and so does he. She’s on a narc rage against me bc I called her ugly, so he gets off on her trying to do covert things to me, sometimes he joins in. He doesn’t gaf about her, only the bs she tries to pull on me to ATTEMPT to hurt me on his behalf. She’s just an object. I already know her demise is coming as he already secured another source of supply. The MN just doesn’t know it yet, he’s in the devaluing phase with her right now, so he’s waiting for the right moment to strike and do shock and awe on her to really hurt her feelings; in relatilationof her calling him fat in front of her friends when she introduced him.
He’s a psychopath and she a malignant narc. How’s that for using someone who’s just like you as an object?
My opinion is based on my experience so, like it or not, I am entitled to my own opinion & my experience.
Hence the word ‘Entitled’, this is a word my very own Soc used regularly in regard to his behavior.
He would say & I quote ‘my master’ as he liked me to call him in bed 😜
‘ I can do whatever I like to you, you are my possession & it is my rite & my entitlement!’
I thought he was ‘nuts’ but, played the silly mans over inflated ‘ego’ game as, I am not the type to deflate a person. 👼
My Sociopath is a deceiving self deceiver otherwise why the false duplicitous life that I discovered.
Love, no they don’t love as that means theyre vulnerable so, ‘whats love got to do with it? ‘ Another quote from Mr Illusion Delution 😁😱
The Soc views you merely as someone who they possess & own, that is not love.
My Soc told me he had never ever felt ‘true love’ never ever.
It was probably one if the only times ge told the truth!
Love is, never having to say your sorry but, he said ‘sorry’ a lot when he hurt me.
I never said ‘sorry’ because I never hurt him, nor undermine him so, I had nothing to feel sorry for.
I would say ‘sorry’ if I accidently stepped on his toe etc…naturally.
Love is not ownership, pain, denial, cheating, degrading, devaluing, stalking, abusive, manipulating etc…
Love is pure & only a truly pure heart can love uncondionally.
Soc’s always have conditions for their brand of ‘love’ & those conditions they feel are entitlement & loyalty to them only. They don’t trust their ‘love’ because they don’t trust themselves to ‘feel love’.
Love isnt ‘what can you do for me’, its a ‘feeling’ not a commodity.
You can’t buy the ‘real love’, you earn it like you do trust & loyalty.
Love is after all, the only feeling that lives on long after we are gone 🙏
I won’t be ‘loving my Soc now or ever!’
As he always said, ‘This is True’
My true, not his! 😜
Love & Light 😃
I agree with what you say. I also agree that we are love. I think everyone is. Whether they are sociopaths or not. We are all love. It is just that the sociopaths brain often works differently, either because they were born that way, or due to whatever else caused them to be that way (environmental, childhood etc). I guess at the end of the day – when the body is gone… we all go back to love 🙂
I texted on the valentines blog about can sociopath ‘s love by accident sorry That’s how upset that John guy got me.peace and love
Wow. I really just think the socios who have written in are upset for being seen for who they are, and are pulling the “you are discriminating just like a racist would” card to get you (us) to shut up and not call it as we see it. Not to mention that this website, the author and other contributors are being attacked for having an opinion and recounting their experiences. (smearing and retaliation)
Nice work, socios. By so vehemently and aggressively denying your character flaws, and defending your “morality”, you’ve just proven that socios are, in fact, nasty pieces of work.
I also wanna say my psychopath can hold a job as he’s had the same job for over 20 years, but that’s because his job gives him a false sense of authority. He wears a uniform and has been desperately trying to become part of the union to look even more grandiose. For some reason they won’t let him. I wonder why? They prolly see him as a weirdo but he keeps coming back begging. Ridiculous and pathetic!!
I think PR could relate to this comment…. her ex was in the fire brigade high up – high functioning and ran the union as well…. I am fairly sure that she said 🙂
Yes Pos, re Bluegal,
Bluegal may find covert narcissist/Sociopath at play 😦
Hi Phoenix, Iread the overt covert narc, great read. CRAZY…wow, there’s so much to the brain, iits fascinating, I also find sociopathy very fascinating, Thankyou for sharing that piece… Peace and love 😃
My ex soc has held his job for a long time too. In his job he is paid to take advantage of people, manipulate, “negotiate”, and play games to get the best deal. He developes shopping centres so ripping people, councils, builders off is all part of the game. One of my first red flags was when he was telling me he was so pissed off because they had to find another site because there was a family of koala bears that lived in the proposed site. He faught it but the community rose up against them. He was livid. When I stood up and said he was wrong he got angry, but he was in the love bombing stage at that point so let it go… I never did find out what happened.
I’m also sure he was doing shady deals on the side making personal money. There were many things that happened that made me believe this.
Read this site etc…very good & in WA 🙂
Pray for Love 🙂
Soc’s, pray for love, real & true & not fake & feigned, REAL or NO DEAL.
Feel it, Deal with it & Heal It 🙂
Positiva I don’t think you should change anything, and I think to post the opinions of the soc is brilliant also. Your original post & all posts is such a service & exposes& educates on very dangerous & often devastating experiences– when & where we feel confused, alone & with no where or no one to understand/ explain.
Including the post of soc and offering the community a chance to respond, have choice in the outcome and present honest question for feedback on your post shows humility, balance, courage & open minded mess—and open communication. I am grateful as you are modeling both strength & vulnerability– which the soc preys on and many if us can identify. I think the soc post goes a step further to show despite & inspite of vulnerability/strength that you/ we posess– the soc just chose or can’t posess/withstand that kind of standing in truth & love. This is what made me both sad & angry & perplexed with soc & even here with their posts it’s very telling, confirming & educational to hear it & see it in the responses posted. It’s been 5 months NC for me– and I STILL have trouble wrapping my head around the emptiness/deceit/lack of remorse, feeling, care & love bombing. I have such a better understanding no doubt but our minds & hearts are just wired so incredibly different & at complete opposite ends of spectrum– that’s what makes it all so interesting, engaging & dangerous.
I appreciate you presenting us with the question– and again didn’t we all constantly question ourselves disproportionately to questioning soc? They bank on it ( literally & figuratively). Even here it’s demonstrated– as well as the frustrating block to truly give or receive love purely- I cant comprehend but I do Trust there is a greater plan & purpose for all of us in this ( soc & us)
I also REALLY appreciate the article PR linked in– it clarifies & paints the hole picture so clearly, detailed & objectively– it’s also educational & helps me know myself, protect myself & others & and identify better–I pray daily for miracles of healing for them & us. Sincerely — EL
Lol open mindedness not open minded mess Lol ( I do think I got in open minded mess with soc though! ( ( Perhaps Freudian slip)
Also the vulnerability that we possess makes giving & receiving love possible– the soc may try or straight up take advantage of it–at the same time they don’t seem to demonstrate the ability to be truly vulnerable — so how can they give or receive love as we know it? I really see vulnerability as key to love– It is a strength– but does obviously require protection/prudence as we know now there are soc/narc/psycho that have no concept other than to attack — ;( like the crocodile image—with crocodile smile– and that rough, slithery, impenatratable skin/camoflage — I know love requires vulnerability & the next man will need to posess & demonstrate this — EL
I feel ( after my utterly vile encounter with one ) that they can love but only temporarily, that they can’t sustain it for long.
I think they get bored.
Mine said he would get bored with people and then move on. I never believed anyone could mean something like that, until of course, now.
They don’t lie…lol….funniest thatng I’ve heard all day…everytine they open their mouth they are lying or implantedng thoughts and manipulating ..aka witchcraft and sorcery…
Crikey! Those rants were scary.
Stand your ground. You have been speaking the truth. Don’t listen to those creeps. Were they just berating you to see if they could manipulate you into changing something on this site?
He’s capable of love, yet never bothered to understand the definition of love? Someone should get this guy a dictionary for starters…
(I mean, doesn’t his tone just make him sound like a total loveable doll?! Oh, he must be telling the truth! I’m in love just reading his charming words! NOT!)
My ex made a lot of extreme declarations about his:
-honesty….(he cheated on me a LOT. however, when he was alone with me, he TECHNICALLY was not actually cheating in those specific moments, so I think he convinced himself magically that he wasn’t – i mean…come on…he must be a total emotional moron…or a magician!)
-unparalleled self awareness…(modesty is not his strong suit)
-“quest to understand what it means to be a man”…(he would say this a lot & I found it a very peculiar “quest”, but I chalked it up to some sort of touchy-feely self-exploration…in retrospect, I don’t think he knows quite literally what it means to be a man!!!)
-amazing parenting abilities (he’d pick his son up from school either stoned or with beer in hand while driving- & then not provide a clean bed for his son to sleep in, not do laundry in timely fashion, not feed him responsibly,…etc. yet supposedly this was my ex’s idea of stellar parenting. he’d regularly tell anyone who’d listen about his parenting prowess. he became known as a good father – yet, no one saw the evidence; they just believed his facade. i know he believed it too.)
-willingness to die for me / do whatever I want, anytime I want it (HAHA!!!) / protect me / commit to me long term – he wouldn’t accept just keeping our relationship casual…yet these were all lies. I genuinely think he thought he meant those words when he said them…it’s like a small child announcing the jungle gym is a spaceship they are going to blast off to another planet in it. Sure, in that world of make-believe it is totally true. If you were to break the spell and tell the child there is no spaceship, you might risk ruining their playtime and upsetting them. And then the next day that same jungle gym might suddenly become a pirate ship in their playtime fantasy…they mean it while they are playing, but they are just playing.
I don’t doubt they believe they can love, etc., but I think their words are hollow – in they do not know what the words they use ACTUALLY MEAN. This mentality sounds like, “if I insist & repeat it enough, then it must be so!”
My pov now is: just because you PLAY a doctor on tv, does not make you one in REAL life.
All I could do was laugh that John was getting very angry!!! That’s what they do when you don’t believe their BULLSHIT! Thanks Postivagirl for putting a smile on my face this morning! Continue to do what you do! Don’t feel guilty for telling the truth. Remember that’s what they do!!!!!
When you really love someone, you put their needs before your own. Real love is when you would take a bullet for them, or you would rip off an arm rather than hurt them. That’s how people love. Sociopaths/psychopaths – whatever feeling they have that they call ‘love’, it isn’t that. They will ALWAYS come first, however socialised they may try to convince us that they are. I think my ex felt about me the way I feel about my new car. I ‘love’ my new car, I feel happy just driving it, I love the way it looks, I love how it is speedy and cute, I love the way it handles. I love my car more than any other car I’ve ever had, or any other car I see on the road. I protect my car from damage and I take care of it by doing checks, services etc. But I’m not going to ask the car where it wants to go, or how it feels about where I take it. And if push comes to shove, and it’s a choice between me and the car, the car is toast! Yet if it decided it wanted to go driving on its own, or, even worse, to find a new owner, I’d be really angry at it – how DARE IT!! After how well I’ve treated it!
I know…. I love my dog. But I am not in love with her. Maybe this is what they mean by love?
But you still have empathy and compassion to your dog. A soc doesn’t have that. The car analogy is perfect. You don’t have empathy for a car. If you crash it/hurt it your upset because its damaged and no longer perfect, and it’s a pain in the arse to fix it and if you have to replace it u may be sad but oh we’ll there is a new model that is even better. If you have lots of memories with it… Well it’s sad but u have photos. That was how my ex was with me. except the saddness. there wasn’t any.. A dog you have empathy for it if its hurt. If it dies a bit of your heart dies too. Karen has it right.
The seven lengthy missives from “John” read like a temper tantrum.
That alleged SP’s rants on your site screamed out personality disorder to me. Maybe more Narc than SP but clearly SO angry, defensive, and manipulative.
I don’t think they can love. Mine often said he felt dead inside, hollow, like something was wrong with him, he couldn’t feel, etc. etc. He joked and was proud of how he could just “delete” someone from his life (of course at the time I thought he’d never delete me–that somehow I would be different)
I broke NC after 4 1/2 months last weekend. I guess it had been so long that I had this stupid idea that maybe I was wrong, he wasn’t a SP. I thought maybe after all this time (9 months since we actually saw each other) he’d realize his mistakes and at the very least apologize to me in person. I was in his city and texted him to tell him that if he wanted a chance to make things right, that if he had anything to say to me, he should make arrangements to do so now (we live 4 hours apart–a blessing I now see). He didn’t respond at first, but finally he did saying “he was sorry about everything and he had a lot going on and he couldn’t see me but he was REALLY sorry” This enraged me, after not feeling so angry for awhile now and I let him have it. He responded in true SP form “I”m with my family my uncle’s in the hospital” I knew that was a lie and I told him so Thanks to your post about using illness to get out of lies, I was able to see it immediately. He’d done it so many times before.
Anyway… my original point is that they never really change and can’t love. I spent 3 years of my life caring for this person and he just used me up until he realized he couldn’t control me anymore and when his lies were no longer working on me. He doesn’t love anyone. Not me, not himself, not the woman he bought that house with. If they lie, they do not love. Lies and love do NOT go together. Owning someone is what they do–they like the idea of ownership and using people.
The literature on this subject is growing, and in all of it, experts talk about their inability to love because when you have no conscience, it’s impossible to feel real love because in order to feel real love, you have to have empathy and SPs can’t feel that.
I used to feel sorry for him that he can’t love, now I just don’t care.
He never did see me last weekend—I gave him that one last chance to redeem himself, to show me maybe he did actually have some small heart, but he didn’t do it. So I knew as I drove out of his city, heaving with sobs (it was also the day of my due date that weekend) that it was finally over for me.
They don’t love it they lie. Your site has helped so many people, don’t let those losers try to manipulate it into you somehow being wrong. YOU ARE DOING A GREAT SERVICE to many people.
Thank you again…
I think there is often a lot of confusion between empathy and emotions. I haven’t seen many sociopaths really understand “what the problem is” either. If you can speak to one who understands what is going on, it is utterly fascinating. I have seen people write that the sociopath has no feelings, which is very untrue.
They do/did love you, they just did not “care” about you, not enough anyway. I have seen sociopaths being helpful, rushing to give first-aid, etc, it seems so contradictory, but remember that the sociopath sees themselves as extremely capable and indestructible. If they love you though, you have already become a threat to them (they could get hurt!), and you will be treated accordingly. I once watched my SP, who was being incredibly cold and uncaring to me at that moment, turn around and act incredibly kind and patient with a street person looking for empty cans. It was completely irreconcilable to my mind, and made his action towards me even more hurtful…seeing that he “could” be kind if he chose to be.
How can you love someone and not care about them? Well, that’s what drives us nuts isn’t it? My ex often would say “I do love you, just not the way you want me to”. (Probably the most honest thing he ever said to me, I just wasn’t able to understand or accept it at the time.)
A sociopath can be “in love” with someone, absolutely, but this isn’t the same as “loving someone”. They become extremely possessive and controlling of the OBJECT of this love. The love interest is not seen as a human, but as the object of desire, the thing that can and MUST fulfill their needs. What else throws a SP into a rage faster than not meeting their needs?
In a healthy relationship we expect to see an exchange of caring behavior and putting the other person’s needs first, a give and take, and a huge amount of empathy for each other. Your successes are my successes, your pain is my pain. The sociopath does not understand this concept and simply cannot do it.
Of course this causes tremendous confusion for someone who is told that someone loves them, but then experiences the opposite of being loved. It feels like the ultimate betrayal and cruelty.
One of my favorite sayings (that I saw in some movie), is that “love is a verb, not a noun”. What WE want is “to be loved”, the act of being loving, selfless, caring more for us than themselves, wanting the best for us…etc. Instead what we get from a sociopath is being the “object of love”, which is really no better than being someone’s favorite pizza, or if we’re really lucky, their car. But on the flip side, they demand “to be loved”, because they want and need to be loved and understood just as much, if not more, than we do. I think this is why they are so skilled at getting people to fall in love with them, they need it the most of anyone, like a bottomless pit that can never be filled and can never give back.
From a distance, you can really feel sorry for them…sometimes.
This is a very insightful comment. “The love interest is not seen as a human, but as the object of desire, the thing that can and MUST fulfill their needs.” is especially spot on. I think I may keep that on a piece of paper in my wallet.
I’m sorry blue but I’m a bit confused. My definition of love has a strong care factor to it. Without it, it is not love. As you said their “love interest” is really just an object of desire. They desire us, want to own us, lust for us. This does not mean love. They do not love us. They can not (as you go on to say in tge rest of your post) this is the issue me thinks. That they don’t understand what love is. Love is the hardest word to define because it is completely emotion based therefore they can only go on what people tell them. Each person will define it slightly differently. Someone has told him love is wanting to protect that person. So he must be in love then because he doesn’t want anyone else to hurt her…. For now. I wonder if he realises that that includes him.
I think love to them is the same as when you first meet someone and you can’t stop thinking about them and you desire them so much it’s almost tangible… This is not love. This is lust.
My ex truly believed he loved me, but once the excitement died down that was it. I was off the pedastool and then the gaming and destroying started because it was my fault that I wasn’t perfect. That is not love. That is lust and a desire to possess. They want us so badly because they see the emotions that they crave but do not have. Loving someone means loving their vulnerabilities and embracing their perceived faults as well, not just the good bits.
My ex used to call me “mini me” I think because he wanted to believe he had all my good points but even more. But he soon found out he didn’t. So he started to despise those emotions and I was now flawed. Enter gaming, cheating, gaslighting, manipulation, hurting etc.
Dr M. Scott Peck talks about how Sociopaths confuse “love” with ownership and control in his book People of the Lie and I think there’s a lot of relevance in how he describes it with his patient Charlene.
Below you can access his book for free. He specifically speaks on love at the bottom of page 173 where it says “no-win”. He never classified Charlene as a sociopath, but she definitely fits the bill. He did however deem her to be “evil”. Great book!
Great thank you for the link to the book 🙂 🙂 (remember I said that i struggled to read the copy I had as the print was too small).
I think to label all sociopaths as evil, is quite a strong statement. I think that his book was published a long time ago, and psychiatric/psychology books were quite primitive in thinking back then.
(I only know this, from studying psychology in the early 90s and someone I knew who was a social worker loaned me some old books) and there were things in there that would never be in todays books. Things like overt racism. Some things that would be shocking to read today.
Also, psychiatrists, unless they have actually experienced it, are limited only to 1-1 research (upon which the subject is likely to lie, deceive and play games), or other works that were available at the time. many of the subjects were also offenders.
I think many academics avoided working on this subject. 100 years ago, it was merely labelled as ‘moral insanity’ and subjects would have been locked either in a lunatic asylum, or the workhouse. Academics avoided the subject as they didn’t want to work with the topic. Or when they did, the subject would be manipulative and deceiving therefore making outcomes not as accurate as they could be. A lot of research has been carried out in prisons. As we know, not all sociopaths are offenders, or land up in jail. Therefore how accurate is the data?
I don’t know about the evil. I can say this as a victim who has lost things that can never be replaced, things that have been done, that were clearly wrong. What I observed was patterns in the brain, that were very similar to patterns with triggers for those suffering from severe PTSD. I would determine it more as impulsive, reckless, lack of forward planning or thinking, opportunistic – rather than evil.
I hope you don’t think I am minimising your view? I am just putting my own point of view. Thank you for sharing the book.
You’re not minimalizing my view at all. The book is close to about 40 years old. While he might use some extreme language, I also think he was very perceptive to write something still so relevant with so little information on the topic at the time.
Dr M. Scott Peck talks on how Sociopaths confuse “love” with ownership and control in his book People of the Lie and I think there’s a lot of relevance in how he describes it with his patient Charlene.
Below you can access his book for free. He specifically speaks on love at the bottom of page 173 where it says “no-win”. He never classified Charlene as a sociopath, but she definitely fits the bill. He did however deem her to be “evil”. Great book!
Thank you for this useful link. I will read it, as I can change the font size!!! Thank you!! 🙂
OMG….this guy is a piece of work! Lol. Enjoyed reading a sociopath sharing how much he loves himself and enjoys demeaning women. Thank you positivagirl!
John Orono’s comments are very honest, showing that sociopaths are a almost a different species from ordinary human beings. I feel Blue’s explanation was accurate and showed a lot of understanding of what they are like. I have been married 45 years to a sociopath (we are now separated), and I know how helpful and generous he can be, as well as how horribly cruel, manipulative and controlling. I could never figure him out. Recently I have learned so much recently about this type of person, and I now understand that they are totally different from ‘regular’, empathetic, caring people. My husband has had a female friend for 30 years (I recently found out), who accepts him for who he is and makes no demands upon him. They basically get along well and he is extremely dependent upon her. I needed him to be a husband and a father, which he was incapable of being, and when I tried to get him to be that, he acted in every hurtful, harmful way possible. I believe what John Orono wrote is true. They ARE NOT and CANNOT be who we want and need them to be. And we cannot force them to be, to feel or to act like we do. The problem is they don’t advertise that up front, they need us, suck us in and will do anything to maintain their hold on us. They are NOT CAPABLE of love and caring the way we understand it, but they do need us for their own purposes! I don’t mean this as a put-down. They are ‘different’. I see it as a sort of major, but invisible handicap they have. Like other handicaps, we cannot expect them to be what they cannot. The problem is that this is impossible for us to know when we meet them, fall in love with them, and fall under their charm and under their spell. That’s when the nightmare of a terrible mismatch begins. It is impossible for two such complete opposites to live peacefully together. We would have been spared much misery if we knew this ahead of time. People need to be educated about the ‘red flags’, the characteristics of sociopathic individuals, so they are forewarned before entering into a relationship with them. Truly they are a totally different species.
The problem is we fall in love with a fake. They fake who they are to get us attached to them. We do expect them to be what they cannot be because when we fell in love with them they told us they could be and were. They are pathological destructive liars that are completely self serving.
Hiya IID 🙂
Love, real love is unconditional 🙂
A Soc may purportedly say, ‘ I Love You’ but, it has conditions with it & if you don’t perform/conform to those conditions then it’s so long baby, hasta la vista!
We all have a ‘Use By Date’, when it comes to a Soc & you just never know what that date is!
Concentrate on loving you as only you can do that unconditionally & then watch yourself grow & shine 🙂
Like a Diamond, lots of Diamonds here 🙂
Love & Light 🙂
I needed to click the ‘follow-up comments’ button….
Thought this was interesting, in light of your post on this subject… http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html
These sociopaths are nothing but mind controlling lying machines who will go to great lengths to convince you are in the wrong!! Don’t listen to them. They are master manipulators. Their idea of love is twisted and dark. Keep up the good work postivegirl and d dont give them the satisfaction of even entertaining their sick twisted viewpoints.
I find this very interesting… After reading what other survivors of socios have posted, I have seen more and more that alot of their situations are VERY similar to mine.. Now after reading the actual words of a Sociopath, wow! Sounds a lot like my ex sociopath. I am not sure if my ex realizes that he is a Sociopath. But he has to know he is “off”. And I know that he knows he is wrong and screwed up.. Reading some of this, sounds exactly what he would say if he admitted to being a sociopath. Also, at times he did admit some of his “flaws” so to speak. Something else, I found interesting, this guy “John Orona” was saying that he was good with #s and had a “brain Image of things” that he memorized bank statements, social security #s, etc. My ex told me that he had a photo graphic memory, Also he told me that because he had blind parents that he could in fact see in the dark ( I did test him on that before, he really could not see in the dark) Also he told me that he could communicate on a high level with animals… Crazy stuff… of course those are just small tidbits in comparison to what he did to me, what he put me through.. When I realized I was in something bad with him, I was looking for a new place to live (at that time I had no idea he was a sociopath) As I was searching for a new place, I was loading my car with my stuff everyday and moving it out, storing my belongings at my friends and family’s homes. The first things I moved out were my computers, my documents, papers and file boxes. I had a horrible feeling about him. Now after reading and learning, I am wondering what information he has stored and memorized about me?
If he had anything you would know it by now they cannot help but boast about how clever they are that they got your personal info (and how stupid you are). ..even if they try to keep it for a later date it often comes out. I did laugh at you testing his claims to see in the dark and him failing lol lol lol honestly!!
@positivagirl Yes! It was pretty funny, because we were in the dark one of the times he mentioned being able to see in the dark. His answer was pretty stupid, general and vague… He was just guessing and trying to sound intelligent at the same time! I know when we were together, he had gone through some of my personal things when I was gone. It came out later because he “slipped” in conversation. I was learning bit by bit not to trust him. Of course all of this was before I knew what he was, a sociopath… It is good to know that he most likely doesn’t have my information! I have not had any conversation with him for 9 1/2 months now!! Its a great feeling! And its good to know that things do get better!
I know this is an old posting but this interests me because my SP/N was squirreling away information about me from the very beginning. Harvesting emails and texts (he was even videoing and recording conversations without me knowing), to use against me in the future! I passed it away as paranoia before I realised five years down the line wtf exactly was going down. Me! When I met him he had bundles of info on his ex wife chat live and stuff where he had hacked her accounts and stuff after they split up. I have had my two bank cards cancelled and emails were hacked after separating but I changed everything so no more of that now.
Is this information hoarding a common SP/N behaviour?
O forgot to add as for love the only person he had any affection for was his mother and that was much more of being the centre of the world with her than anything else. He was born with a club foot and was over compensated with love – still is, gets rewarded for tantrums at fifty years of age. I have deep concerns about his parents welfare as I have seen him freak right out at his 80 odd year old blind cancer ridden fathrr. And his mother gives him his own way just to stop him. Lots of jealousy with the brother too… Empty feelings for me, and he talked badly of his ex when she won the divorce battle, before this he told me she was the love of his life! They”re manipulators and liars and change like the wind. I don’t think they actually know what true love is only what they imagine it to be.
Oh, and another thing I thought of – they say they ‘love you’ so quickly. Looking back – he didn’t know me, yet he ‘loved me’, That was the peak of his love, never got any deeper. THAT is sociopath love – NO love, from start to end.
Yes… when they say it from day 1 or 2 want to get engaged within weeks…. do they really know what real love is?
Its bizarre to identify as a sociopath and then in the same sentance justify your abilty to love…. these two things dont belong together! Maybe they feel an affection an have mistaken this for love…
I really appreciate this post.
I think that “None” is the heroic exception. 100% true that socio’s can be good people. Just not the one I fell in love with and not any others that I have read about. I think mine was like this in the beginning. When he was still a teenager. I became acquainted with some of the friends he had in middle and high school and I think if he had the strength of will to stay the type of person that he was then, that he could have ended up like that. Noble.
I don’t think “John Orona” is a sociopath. One of the clinical criteria of sociopath is someone who lacks capacity for love. There is lots of room on the spectrum of anti-social personality disorder for individuals who exemplify anti-social traits, but still fall short of sociopathy. Sociopaths are protective and loyal only of and to themselves. Or else they are acting that way of others because it in some way serves their purposes. “It benefits me to have her in my life because she provides what I crave most,” he says. Exactly. Orona says he doesn’t lie and appreciates when his girlfriend sees through his manipulation. I would put a whole lot of money the bet that Orona is not a true sociopath. Probably just clinically anti-social. He says “I’m obligated to comfort her and fix the problem, if I’m the cause of that problem,” and that is clinically NOT sociopathic behavior. If he is telling the truth when he says this, he is not a sociopath, because sociopaths are not able to feel remorse. And that is what obligation is. If you had no remorse, you would not feel any obligation.
I think he is absolutely a sociopath. Just because he says that he loves her. I don’t think his actions display love. Rather (to me) it shows control? He has total control over her. Perhaps he really does believe that this is love though?
I don’t think they have to definitely be liars and cheaters. What about Dexter? He never lies. He just says only exactly enough. If he can do it, anyone else could.
@ Bluegal: They are definitely born this way. It’s like any other mental disorder. Anyone who is mentally afflicted will be affected by the environment they are raised in. They are about equally affected by their genes. I know this is true. I hope that anyone who does not acknowledge this will start to. Their genes are at least 50%, if not more, responsible. It is a sucky fact of life. The thing that makes them horrid is largely out of their control. But not completely. Sociopathy is hereditary. That’s a fact.
Also, Bleugal, psychopath and sociopath are used interchangeably in professional literature. You can google the terms and find definitions for each that are mirror reflections. As far as I am concerned, it matters not what we call them. Only what they are. And we all here know what they are.
Oh yes! I know this to be true as well. In Hindsight, so many people have told me early on in dating him, if I want to understand him, look at his mother. His mother lives out of state but, when I finally did meet her, she was very strange, indeed. She went narc rage on me once over a phone call and hasn’t spoken to me since. Tells everyone she hates me and his sister as well is a malignant narc. It’s so weird I know this now and I can see how certain family members have suffered all these years. I have no love for these people. At. All.
Honestly as we all know, the thing a sociopath despises the most is being found out. They don’t want people to be able to identify them. No sociopath will give you the full truth on anything, including what it’s like to be a sociopath. Yet, all the victims experiences seem consistent as gravity. Don’t put too much stock in anything they say about anything, that’s what got us here in the first place ;p
Ahhh MRKNIGHT75 🙂
I agree totally!
re the ‘don’t put much stock in anything a Soc says’.
Pussy Galore 😉 LOL
Love & Light 🙂
It’s times like this that I want to visit Australia 🙂
Ha, you should! ;p
PG oops I mean PR xoxox LOL etc…
Australia is a great place 🙂
I WILL come to visit you, absolutely….
I am going to hold you too that you know 🙂
Love & Light 🙂
As a sociopath, dating a sociopath is awesome. It’s like we were made for each other. I never lie to him (It makes things more interesting). That fact was not made obvious until later (I forced his hand) and it has been a really entertaining experience. We spend a lot of time trolling eachother. Though I can agree that most normal people wouldn’t enjoy our sense of humor. I’m pretty passive, reasonable, and don’t care about things unless they directly involve me. It’s almost impossible to offend me (at least “for real” offend me) unless you threaten me. I wouldn’t leave him for anyone, we’re better with each other than apart.
Thank GOD. Now if the rest would only follow your lead.
Lol 🙂 🙂 I thought the same.
I have a question for you… My ex and my brother are both Socios (I didn’t really know at the time)…and they hated each other with a real passion. Is it easy for one socio to identify another? If one SP feels the other SP is going to interfere or is encroaching on their territory, is hatred, etc. normal?
There could be competition. Sociopaths don’t trust (for good reason they know they are not trustworthy so assume nobody else is either). To them someone can either be manipulated or they can’t. If they can’t be manipulated then potentially they are a threat….. Prob where the tension comes from.
Well if you’re that honest with him, and you’ll never leave him, and you feel joined at the hip with him, I’m certain hands down he adores you and prolly slanders you behind you’re back. You only believe what he tells you and you have no way of knowing what he does 24/7. I’m guessing you’re a MN. Typically women who are MN are clingy to their Spath mates, bf, and spouses like that. The men just feed them whatever they want to hear, while the MN does their best to devalue the Spath by yelling and screaming being a general PITA, while the Spath is laughing at you. It’s entertaining alright. Because you’re both acting like fools and don’t even realize it. But if it makes you happy then I guess the jokes on you and you’re wearing it well and liking it. Kudos.
What is an mn?
MN is malignant narcissists and PITA is pain in the ass
Ah thank you!!
I know for a fact my ex left me for a MN. I told him she will never leave him. The look in his face was almost ecstatic. This face after he told me a story how she embarrassed him in front of her friends. He told me he uses her for fun. He said he’s gonna get back at her for embarrassing him. I believe it. Even made a pass at her daughter to her face and she did nothing(don’t ask me how I know, but I know). I know for a fact he talks down to her but she’s to stupid to even realize she’s being devalued. And I also know he’s onto someone else already. Their kind of relationshit is symbiotic. They both need each other for whatever foolery they feel like playing with each other. They both know they play games with each other but to what extent before one blows up, who knows. But the bottom line is for both, MN and Spath, it’s a game of wits or nit wits, if you will
Hi Bluegal 🙂
What is a MN & a PITA, I thought a Pita was a bread 😉 LOL
Can you please enlighten me 🙂
I agree with your statement re the Spath on Spath & if that’s what ‘floats their boat’, well AHOY but, I have a feeling it will end tragically like the Titanic! 🙂
Love & Light fellow survivors of the shipwreck ‘Spath’.
It’s a bit like Gilligan’s Island for some & they never get saved!
I would like to hear the ‘ending’ story …. Or maybe I wouldn’t .
Hiya Chickie 😉
I will contact you via other means soon bella 🙂
Love PR xoxo
I don’t know what a MN is either, but I not only like pita bread (and pita chip) but I’ve been known to occasionally tell my sister she is a PITA or Pain In The Arse!!! LOL
And… the professor in my management class shared a book with the class that I thought might be an interesting read for us – it deals with manipulative people. The title is “In Sheep’s Clothing, Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People” by George K. Simon, Jr., PhD.
Thank you Bella Celeste 🙂
I shall have a look at that book 🙂
I like Pita’s also but, not the painful ones;)
Love & Light & keep strong 🙂
Am I allowed to join the “only sociopaths lie” circle-jerk?
I stumbled on this site doing a broad search after mentally revisiting some of my past foibles. I am so glad I did!!! I don’t think you should change your post. at. all.
I actually couldn’t finish reading the responses. They all sounded so very self absorbed, angry, and contrived, which just further validates your post.
The person that I was with definitely did not show what I consider to be love. If someone [sociopath] lacks certain feelings and empathy, how could they know what it truly is anyhow, right?
I am sure it is very upsetting for a sociopath to read that they cannot experience true love, as they often pride themselves in being superior to others. Like, they do everything, even love better. If they can mimic what others do, why is it not the same?
I remember very vividly a conversation with my ex. He told me that it shouldn’t matter why he did something, just that he did it. But for me motivation is important, and if the motivation is a hidden agenda, it taints the action for me. Like if someone helps you change a tire. If they are helping you change it, because they see you are in distress and want to help alleviate that, then it is nice. On the other hand, if they are helping you, so they can attain your information to later stalk you, then it certainly changes things.
I know a lot of what I am saying is so similar to previous posts, and I hope it isn’t too redundant. I am just so thankful to have found this site and hear others with the same backgrounds. It is empowering and very helpful. I have found it very hard to describe what I experienced, and even harder to find people near me who understand what I had went through.
Thank you for your comment, and welcome to the site.
Hi Wallflower 🙂
This site is a refuge of peace in the somewhat crazy disordered world of the Sociopath/Narc that we have all found & you are not alone here & we get ‘YOU’ 🙂
A sociopath’s perfect target is idealistic, forgiving, generous, and romantic. Most targets are very selective about their partners, often feeling lonely & frustrated by the dating scene. So when the sociopath comes along to mirror all of their greatest fantasies, the target pours their entire heart & soul into the relationship. They’ll invest everything they can—emotionally, financially, and physically. They quickly feel comfortable opening up because the sociopath grooms them to believe they’ve found “the one”. This forms an immediate bond of trust and familiarity. So when the sociopath begins the devaluing process, the target will attempt to absorb all of the blame in relationship, in order to restore the perfect memory they have of the person who once claimed to be their soul mate. This is why psychopathy awareness is so important. Without the missing puzzle piece, it is only logical to assume that this “soul mate” existed at some point, and might return again with enough love & care. But once we understand psychopathy, we come to realize that this person never existed at all. It was a mirror image—a carbon copy—of everything we wanted in a partner. When sociopaths lose this element of surprise, their playground of victims diminishes significantly. Share this post to keep your friends & family PsychopathFree!
You are never alone in this 🙂
Love & Light 🙂
You would go through heaven and he’ll to provide for your loved ones but, would never put them before yourself? Love is all about putting someone before yourself.. Do you not get it?
With a non-SP relationship, when you put your loved one first, they in turn reciprocate. A SP does not. They take and take and take until you have nothing left and then make you feel guilty because you aren’t doing/giving more.
Love IS about giving to your loved ones but since we all know psychopaths don’t know how to give love, much less even know what live is, all they do is take love. So they have this crazy ass expectation that it’s ok for them to take without having to give. That’s called entitlement. No Mr/Mrs Psychopath, you’re not entitled to just take all the time without giving. Love is not an entitlement, it’s a privilege. And if you have a hard time processing that in your brain, try spending some time empathizing what love is. I’ll wait…
Lost2Camelot, also look for these two signs: 1) A significant and persistent difference between what the socio gets from friends and what she gives to them (to a socio, everyone is a resource), and 2) Upon asking a socio what she loves about or finds compelling in her friends, you get a) no answer, b) a blank stare, c) a contemptuous dismissive remark, d) a superficial response (e.g., she’s so funny) or e) all of the above.
Socios can’t love, can’t give, and can’t explain what draws them authentically to other human beings.
These are really big tells. If you see either or both, get out immediately.
Very very true! Glib answers that typically make no sense at all!! Empty words with no meaning. Sociopaths cannot describe anything about anyone unless that person is a source of supply. In that case, the tells are obvious to who the socio is. They’ll say, oh he/she is stupid I just have fun with them=they gave me a narcissistic injury and I’m going to eventually hurt them after I get what I want out of them. Or, he/she is not important to me, we’re just friends=I’m already grooming them to think the way i want them to think so I can have cheerleaders
I’d also like to add to that, is to try asking the same question at different times in different ways and you’ll find you get dramatically different answers. Another tell goody is try having a conversation about one topic and see if the conversation starts to tilt onto another subject almost seemingly(I call it the word salad conversation). The tell tale signs with these ppl is almost identical and definitely repetitive. It’s in the psychopath handbook for asshats 101. They have to pass that course to go on to their Masters Degree of the ultimate whack job of dupery. Ugh!
Trying to communicate with him about anything more complicated than McDonalds or Taco Bell drove me crazy because the conversation would start on topic and then would drift in several different directions. However, being a customer service trainer and educated in communication techniques, I would let him ramble until he was played out and then remind him he had gotten off topic and tell him that we needed to return to the original conversation. That would make him mad and he would walk away OR we would start talking and he would head off on another flight of fancy. Either way, he just wore me out to a point where I just gave up.
I do remember looking at him once and asking him if he was trying to drive me crazy or drive me away so that he could tell everyone that I left him and he could be a martyr to the world. Which is exactly what happened and when I finally ran out of money and couldn’t handle him anymore, he was sending out emails before I was down the street.
It’s interesting how upset they get and how ironic the responses are, given that they are psychopaths/sociopaths. Perhaps reading comprehension and looking up the very definition of their diagnosis needs to come into play here before they even can begin to respond. Smdh
Sounds like a sociopath doing what a sociopath does best: lying, manipulating, and playing the victim. “Waaa Waa poor me! It’s not fair! You don’t have a right to judge me! Boo hoo hoo.” Meanwhile they are fuckin everyone and their mother over without battin an eye. I agree with one of the previous commenters…let’s lock em all in a room together and let em go at it.
They really aren’t even THAT clever if you get right down to it (Let’s not give them too much credit, you know they get high off that). We just ignored red flags and stayed in denial until it got REALLY bad. Most healthy people see right through their bullshit and don’t give them the time of day. They see them as the obnoxious immature little brats that they are.
I just had a encounter where I told mine to fuck off. Immediately he started trying to manipulate and seduce me. I ignored him, but I am sure he will keep trying. The part I struggle with the most is ME feeling like “Damn, he was so sexy though. He’s probably not THAT bad. Maybe I am overreacting. Maybe we can be friends.”
DON’T DO IT LADIES AND GENTLEMAN. Don’t con yourself…we give these people so much credit thinking THEY are the con men, when in reality we are just conning ourselves. Focus on healing and loving yourself, like PositivaGirl always says ❤
Thank you for posting this..it is good to read the ramblings of these lunatics….the lies they tell, they truly believe…and reading these posts, you understand that these monsters are every bit the demons i know them to be…do us all a favour psychopaths ….see if you can con someone out of an island, move there -live there forever, or better yet, cage fight yourselves to death, and leave the rest of us alone…
I get so amused when I read things like this about sociopaths because people are always assuming that sociopaths don’t feel anything at all.
They do feel, in a limited way. They can feel anger and frustration, pleasure and pain. But because they can’t feel those emotions for anyone other than *themselves,* people automatically assume they lack emotions entirely.
No, sociopaths don’t feel guilt for their actions. They don’t have a concept of right/wrong or good/evil. But they are able to understand how society defines those concepts and then define themselves in relation to those concepts.
That’s not the way the rest of us define the world around us. We feel the same pain for someone else’s situation that a person feels for themselves.
Sociopaths can’t do that. They can pretend to feel– in our society, they have to pretend in order to survive. Somewhere along the way, that dance of pretense becomes a thrill. They get the drive to see just how far they can push someone before they break- how long they can keep themselves hidden while pushing to be seen.
And it isn’t a call for attention from them– sociopaths don’t care if someone else understands them. How can they care about that, when the only emotions that they possess are entirely self-involved and self-serving?
Sociopaths are thrill-seekers- each one unique in his own way. The problem I see isn’t that sociopaths don’t understand how to relate to the rest of us–it’s that we try to relate to them in terms of emotional patterns of behavior that they will never understand.
To a sociopath, possession IS love. If that control/ownership is threatened, they get angry. They become vindictive. And they will stop at nothing to retain their possession — as long as that possession is one they are interested in keeping.
To the rest of us, the idea of possession being love is creepy and confining. Because to us, love is about allowing our partners to be themselves- giving each other the freedom of self-expression– without suffocating them by attempting to possess them.
And that is where the disconnect is born.
Sociopaths come across as manipulative, cruel, and abusive — even when they may be 100% honest– because those of us with normal levels of emotion don’t understand the motivations underlying their behavior.
But rather than trying to understand those motivations, the majority of us throw abuse at them and dismiss them. Claim they can’t be human. Advocate genocide. Atrocious. Those actions are more inhumane than the manipulative games played by the majority of sociopaths.
Oh. One last thing? I’m a fully trained Empath– just in case you were wondering where I fall on the emotional spectrum :p
Great comment, thank you Lynne.
In my humble opinion, there’s nothing to understand about a person who cannot feel empathy for when they knowingly and purposely hurt another person for their own personal gain and agenda. Being human requires empathy and compassion. The very fact that the obvious and most prominent emotion they do feel is anger and frustration does humanity no service at all. Emotions/feelings like that are extremely destructive to the fabric of society as a whole once they permeate it. So do I think they are a waste of space and biological flesh and blood? You betcha I do!
Hi Bluegal 😃
I tend to look at it like this, I am an empath & I hate cruelty to animals.
Therefore I try & defend all animals from being subjected to inhumane & vile cruelty. Humans do this & as a member of the human race, I am ashamed of what my fellow man inflicts upon defenseless creatures.
I hope that some Soc’s view other Soc’s behavior toward empaths like this?
Being human to me means being evolved enough to know right from wrong & inflicting physical/mental/spiritual pain upon another just because you can is disgusting. I don’t like sharks but, I don’t like killing for the sake of it towards these creatures either.
Does this make sense?
Being a human regardless of where you come in the ‘spectrum’ does not give you a free pass for abuse ever!
Love & Light 😃
I think what you said is exactly what I said in a more general manner. Im Saying I do not feel for psychopaths sociopaths those with ASPD anyone on that cluster B spectrum. I can’t feel sorry for a person who has no empathy or compassion for knowingly and purposely hurting another person or living animal. I can’t be any more clearer than that. I know they have no shame remorse or guilt for what they do, manipulate, deceive or knock over to get what they want. Why ppl bother to psycho analyze them thinking it’ll turn out different or that they can be fixed or repaired is beyond me. They are what they are and will do what they do.
I dislike abuse as much as anyone else, but assuming a sociopath is automatically abusive is like assuming a black person is automatically a criminal.
There are niches in our societies where sociopaths can be beneficial. Law enforcement is one of those areas. Because they can be completely objective about the cases they work, sociopaths can catch the most horrendous criminals faster than a normal person could.
Because they can think in ways we can’t– they can get inside the heads of serial killers/rapists and find the patterns the rest of us miss because we let emotion cloud our judgment.
The assumption that a sociopath is automatically harmful to society is just that– an assumption.
If they can find an outlet in which to channel their manipulative behavior, they can avoid it in their personal relationships. But it takes a high degree of self-awareness for a sociopath to understand what they need.
What makes a sociopath dangerous is what makes any one of us dangerous– a lack of self-knowledge. If they don’t understand what they are, why they are different from others, or what they need– then that is what leads to abusive situations at home.
Granted, there are other sociopaths who just like the thrill of hurting people– and those are the ones everyone should stay clear of– but those are very rare in the sociopath world.
What the majority of sociopaths want is power/control. They aren’t above inflicting pain to achieve those goals, but that isn’t their primary focus.
And I’ve noticed, in all the stories I’ve read about those abused by sociopaths, that most of the abuse starts when the sociopath becomes afraid they are losing control. Something happens that threatens the security of the relationship and the loss of control is the one thing they can’t cope with. So they panic and become abusive because here is the area where sociopaths lose sight of their own rationality.
Irrational behavior is emotional behavior, usually driven by fear.
Phoenix Rising– you asked about how other Empath’s view sociopaths.
I disagree with your definition of human being someone who knows right from wrong or good from evil. Because those are subjective terms, decided by society. In some situations, a good action can be the wrong thing to do and in others, a bad action can be the best move to make.
The world isn’t so simple that right/wrong good/evil are black & white. Emotions themselves are much more complex than that. Even in a typical relationship, when a couple argues, both people feel that they are making the “right” points.
As for inflicting mental/spiritual/physical/emotional pain on others– that one is harder to quantify.
Someone else subjecting you to pain is never good– except when it is, like in the case of a dislocated shoulder. If a doctor doesn’t cause pain to slip the shoulder back into place, he’s doing more harm than good.
Mental pain–psychiatrists help patients remember and relive traumatic events so that they can heal from them. If someone keeps suppressing trauma, that’s more harmful than helpful. (This is also emotional pain).
Spiritual pain…I’m not sure how someone inflicts spiritual pain on another person, honestly, because everyone’s faith is unique. I guess someone could threaten to undermine another person’s belief system, but if said person is being fanatical, isn’t that good?
Sure, they are unique situations. But as an Empath, I have the responsibility to examine each person’s actions individually and not make assumptions of a whole slew of people I’ve never met.
I don’t believe that anyone on this planet is born wrong. All of us are human, without exception. If someone is born a sociopath, then they have their own path to walk, their own life to live. Yes, they might hurt other people on the way, but they also might help them.
To dismiss even one person as human is to throw away the empathic gift you were born with. When you say “you’re not human,” to someone else, you are invalidating their existence and thus invalidating your own.
Sociopaths exist at the opposite end of the spectrum from Empaths because we balance one another out. It is why we are so drawn to them and they to us. It is when we invalidate their worldview that we fall prey to them, because we say “I can’t see you, I can’t understand you,” and they are then forced to *make* us see — in the only way they have left.
In my opinion, much of your post neglects context. You talk about people assuming sociopaths as abusive being wrong. In the context of discussion on this particular site, most have experienced emotional, if not physical and economic abuses. I haven’t read a single post on this site that has claimed the sociopath the person encountered _wasn’t_ abusive in one way or another. In short, we’re not generalizing… it’s our experience. You on the other hand might be generalizing. We don’t even know whether _you_ are abusive.
If ANYThinG we know to be true about sociopaths is correct (and our correlated stories suggest it is), a “beneficial” sociopath is about as likely as a self-aware sociopath. Their lack of self-awareness is the very reason they are a sociopath and essentially untreatable. I’ve dug in a little on this subject because it perplexes me. At first, I thought it must be something deeply ingrained in coding (genetic). But now, I just theorize that the personality disorder could be deep defense mechanisms of an otherwise intelligent mind that are impenetrable because they were created to serve a purpose. The sociopath’s mind perhaps just took a different tack than, say, splintering into multiple personalities. This would render them capable of technically functioning in society, but more of as a copy/mimic than an authentic personality type. As I said, it’s just my theory, but it makes better sense than many other things I’ve read.
You said, “What the majority of sociopaths want is power/control. They aren’t above inflicting pain to achieve those goals, but that isn’t their primary focus.” Isn’t it? Their primary focus always seems to be self-preservation. They will be the last to be genuinely altruistic in this world. I think you validate this yourself with your next observations…
“And I’ve noticed, in all the stories I’ve read about those abused by sociopaths, that most of the abuse starts when the sociopath becomes afraid they are losing control. Something happens that threatens the security of the relationship and the loss of control is the one thing they can’t cope with. So they panic and become abusive because here is the area where sociopaths lose sight of their own rationality.
Irrational behavior is emotional behavior, usually driven by fear.” And _emotional behavior_ would be scary as h*ll to a sociopath. It’s the very thing they have developed mechanisms to thwart and turn off.
You said, “I disagree with your definition of human being someone who knows right from wrong or good from evil. Because those are subjective terms, decided by society. In some situations, a good action can be the wrong thing to do and in others, a bad action can be the best move to make.”
Here’s where you really go astray. Right and wrong is not arbitrary, as you would like the collective whole to believe. Most moral codes are based on not infringing on the rights of others. Once you do that, there is an unseen consequence. In brief, you may think you’re taking something from another, but there is a cost to that. Nice try though. Sociopaths would love for there to be no boundaries on that one.
You said, “As for inflicting mental/spiritual/physical/emotional pain on others– that one is harder to quantify.” A scientific analysis as to the degree of damage done isn’t required for ANYBODY to know it happened, even the unfeeling sociopath. Again, in my opinion, the sociopath would like for it to be “less of a crime” than it really is. We all won’t believe like you or be like you—and we shouldn’t be, we’re healthy!
You said, “Someone else subjecting you to pain is never good– except when it is, like in the case of a dislocated shoulder. If a doctor doesn’t cause pain to slip the shoulder back into place, he’s doing more harm than good.” = out of context example, not applicable to someone purposely doing harm to another for personal gain, because they want to see what happens, or because they have need to control.
You said, “Mental pain–psychiatrists help patients remember and relive traumatic events so that they can heal from them. If someone keeps suppressing trauma, that’s more harmful than helpful. (This is also emotional pain).” = same scenario as above para.
You said, “Spiritual pain…I’m not sure how someone inflicts spiritual pain on another person, honestly, because everyone’s faith is unique. I guess someone could threaten to undermine another person’s belief system, but if said person is being fanatical, isn’t that good?” I’m not surprised you wouldn’t get this one. Even your answer doesn’t get to the core of the issue, but let me address that piece first… who are you (or anyone) to decided what’s “fanatical” behavior? In your infinite wisdom, will you determine at what point another crosses that line? The real issue with a sociopath undermining another’s spirituality to gain control has much greater consequence in the spiritual realm. You are hurt essentially, and dismantle another person’s foundation for your own purposes? Best believe there is a serious cost to using lies, deceit and manipulation to put someone healthy on an ill path.
You said, “Sure, they are unique situations. But as an Empath, I have the responsibility to examine each person’s actions individually and not make assumptions of a whole slew of people I’ve never met.” For someone who dislikes assumptions, you sure do make a lot of generalizations yourself. What are you even referencing here? Context, context, please.
You said, “Sociopaths exist at the opposite end of the spectrum from Empaths because we balance one another out. It is why we are so drawn to them and they to us. It is when we invalidate their worldview that we fall prey to them, because we say “I can’t see you, I can’t understand you,” and they are then forced to *make* us see — in the only way they have left.” I hardly think you can blame the empath for being p*ssed off when he/she learns of the sociopathic attempt to manipulate, take, and dismantle. “Make” us see them? Most of the time they spend their lives hiding and trying to fit in. Why? Because they are not self-aware enough to admit they might be a problem and seek the help that would cause them to open up and be most vulnerable, losing that ever-important control. I believe you are right about them being a counter-balance on the other end of the human spectrum, but don’t sympathize with them. Without any admission of their own fault, they do create their own scenario. I personally don’t believe they are built as untreatable. I believe they are “made” that way because a key to their help is hidden even to themselves. That is a lousy paradox, but as a spiritual believer who has seen incredible things in my lifetime, I have to believe this too is possible to overcome.
Hiya Jusa 😉
Once again THANK YOU for putting it so concisely & eloquently 🙂
Me, I like my shark analogy 🙂
If I wanted to swim with Sharks, I’d don a wet-suit & shark repellent & hope like hell my bladder holds out! They are attracted to pee apparently?
Although, if I actually saw one it would be more than pee 😉 😉
We all know right from wrong & we have laws/codes of conduct & ethics etc… for that reason.
Why some (not al??) Soc’s think they are above society laws & moral laws, I am still amazed at their audacity to justify their take on their behavior in general!
Anyone that ultimately has their own selfish agenda & is opportunistic & does not have a decent set of core values to abide by then,that to me is fraudulent behavior & a total misrepresentation of oneself.
Unfortunately as in my experience, they use others to gain their ‘way in’ & take credit usually at the benefit of others. I did my Soc’s Diploma to retain his ranking (I know, still rankles me!).
As I’ve said before, if I volunteered to swim with the ‘Sharks’ then so be it but, most of us don’t know we are until, they take a huge bite out of us.
Be it morally,physically,spiritually,financially,ethically & so on, it’s not justifiable nor right & we all have a right to exist on this planet without the game playing & illusion & chaos they create in our lives.
I would rather take my chances swimming with sharks any day, at least I know what they look like & act like!
Love & Light 🙂
Lynne, please realize that abuse has many forms & emotional abuse lasts forever. If you have ever had someone ‘play’ with your head then you would understand. If you have had verbal or physical abuse then you would truly understand.
It’s not a reflection on you personally as I don’t know you but, this was my experience & perhaps rather than quantify & justify on behalf of other Soc’s, you stick to your own code of conduct & concede that we are here to heal & support & not debate our view of our individual journey!
If most Soc’s don’t give a damn then, why do you care what we think?
We will never agree with you so, what do you want?
P.S. Lynne & any other Soc reading this,
If we had a choice whether to engage in a relationship (personal or other) most of us would decline.
If mine had said,
“Darling, I like you for your usage & what you can give me but, please be aware that I am self absorbed,obsessed & delusional etc…& I will objectify & treat you as a possession to control & manipulate you etc…”
“I will also have OW’s everywhere & never ever let you fulfill your life’s desires as I will be constantly ‘keeping’ you in my collection & I will not permit you to meet someone else but, I will!”.
Hmmm, me thinks I would most likely have run a mile.
Actually, I would not have run I would have flown,swam,hopped or jumped over, under,through anything to get away!
Tell the truth & we’d all be better off & if you do then, good on you!
I want you to very carefully read this note and think about it for a while before you respond. I’m going to make five points to address the biggest problems with your specific arguments and overall position.
First, sociopathy is not a lifestyle, a set of values, or a “way of being.” Sociopathy is the result of medically measurable deficiencies in cognitive architecture that prevents socipoaths from (1) giving or receiving love, (2) developing a conscience, and (3) engaging in the type of impulse control long-term planning that is characteristic of non-sociopath human beings.
This first point is not my opinion; these facts have already been verified by professionals in the fields of medicine, cognitive science, and psychology.
Second, while sociopathy is like race in the specific sense that both are non-voluntary conditions, sociopathy is not comparable to race in the sense that you have compared them above. You argued that because racism is wrong (and it is an insipid form of cultural cowardice, I agree), it follows that negative assessments of sociopaths are also wrong or worthy of contempt.
Your argument is unsound because – as I mentioned above – science has established that sociopaths are incapable of treating human beings with love, consideration and appropriate empathy. Therefore, our assessment of sociopathy is not moored in prejudice or hatred, but rather in the dispassionate consideration of what makes these people fundamentally different from us.
Third, you are wrong to suggest that emotional harm is not subject to widespread consensus across cultures. A sense of fair play has been measured in all the world’s diverse cultures, as has the need for love, security and genuine affection. What this means is that if socipaths cannot provide genuine love or consideration to their friends, family and sexual partners (collectively, their “targets”), and instead lie to us in order to ruin our lives, then they are committing acts that we all deeply feel are morally wrong. If you want to insist that morality is “subjective,” be my guest. But you are swimming against a tide that is quite high, and no one here is convinced in the slightest.
Fourth, there is no such thing as a harmless or benevolent sociopath, much in the same way there is no such thing as a benign vampire. They harm us because it is in their nature to harm us, and there is nothing we have done to instigate their insidious behavior and there is no way their attempt to “control a situation” is a proper justification for the havoc they visit upon the rest of humanity.
Fifth and finally, I would recommend that you read The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout. Dr. Stout would support me when I claim that the FIRST THING one must accept is that a sociopath wants nothing more than to destroy the soft, caring feelings that an empath is capable of, and that is precisely why we must protect ourselves by “invalidating” (to use your language, though I think it’s inapt) their existence.
To reject a sociopath is thus never, ever a form of denying one’s own humanity. Quite the contrary, it is the only way to defend ourselves against their attempts to destroy us.
Well said! THNT 🙂
Thank you, thank you :)….
Aren’t you glad we aren’t the ‘do unto others as they do unto us’ types.
I think if Soc’s ran riot, it’s would be like the ‘walking dead’ & that show really creeps me out!
From one good soul to another, go placidly my friend 🙂
Love & Light 🙂
Everyday I find a value to live by & stick to.
Today’s is ‘Life is short so, make it count, don’t count the cost!’
At the end of the day, I will have lived knowing I truly tried only to love & care for others & that will be my legacy 🙂
Love PR xoxo
Regardless of how much they contribute to society, how ‘deep’ they love or assume they do, there is one truth above all that matters in a relationship between an empath and a socio: emotional damage to the empath. An empath cannot damage another empath to that extent if they are the biggest liars, cowards and manipulators. A sociopath serenly will do just that. That’s all i wanted to say.
Hi Andy 😃
Totally agree, from start to finish its all one sided. All self obsession, self delusion & selfish mind gaming without any consideration for the empath.
Once we realise the relationship actually never included us or our needs & desires, we can appreciate our freedom from the game & our luck at no longer being their target.
No loss in losing a loser!
Love & Light 😃
To me, they cause more than just emotional damage. They also cause psychological damage to the empath, which is very destructive and makes it very difficult for empaths to move forward. Not to mention financial devastation. Me personally, I won’t minimize the damage these people cause to help give them a pass. Nope, not me!!
Hi Bluegal 🙂
This is a quote from my favorite Stephanie Dowrick, I hope it helps & you keep working on regaining your wholehearted wonderful self 🙂
If you are at the receiving end of someone else’s negative behaviors, please take renewed care of yourself. Your sense of self and self-confidence will always be undermined if someone treats you badly. In that situation, get intelligent professional help at once. None of us deserves to be the dumping ground for someone else’s misery or frustrations. We must save others from our own worst moods. Often, too, we must save ourselves.
The behaviors that undermine relationships – and self-confidence – include treating others with indifference or contempt, “punishing” or belittling with bad moods or silence, making unfair demands (or any “demands”), a lack of confidentiality and respect, not listening, name-calling, withdrawing and denying kindness or safety. These common behaviors radically undermine the well-being of everyone who suffers them. And they pave the way to relationship hell. But with some strength of mind and especially with insight and good will, they can be changed.
Love & Light 🙂
I noticed that one of the spath’s said he is loving and enjoyed just “lying” in bed with his loved one.
He mispelled the word – he meant “laying” but typed “lying”.
🙂 🙂 🙂 this comment made me laugh!!!
Love it Khloe 🙂
Mine didn’t know what Oxymoron meant so, I told him he was one!
Isn’t it ironic 😉
Love & light 🙂
They do not love the way others love. My sociopath is STILL trying to convince me that he loves me and only me – that I am the woman of his dreams, that he wants to marry me and have children, etc! He tells me that he thinks of no one else, that we are soul mates and that he is my true love… He has told me these things for 2 years – yet during this time, I have caught him with other women’s phone numbers, with messages to other people, I have caught him in person trying to pick up other women at bars! Recently, I have caught him trying to get with an ex – an ex that he has a child with… he told me someone lied that they had his child – this “lying bitch” was spreading rumors about him. I left him, and even though he still told me there was no one else, I was able to find out that yes, he was trying to get back into her life at the same time. I have kept this from him – so I can see what he says to me, and then see if he is lying… And he is. Everything I have read here is true – you are a supply for his needs and his desires, and nothing more. Because they understand “right from wrong” it is easy enough for them to say sorry – to say I love you… to apologize. But they cannot discuss anything they have done in an insightful way – they do not attach to things the same way a normal person does. Does my sociopath BELIEVE he loves me? I think he believes he does… even though he’s still playing me. Is it actually love? No it is not. Just because they say they love you, just because they ‘feel’ something – that feeling does not stem from true love. I have no doubt he would still marry me – I’m the best victim he’s ever had… of course he would marry me! We would have a family, and then he would keep us forever to supply him – to forgo that fear of abandonment he has. But he would still have other supplies. He would still abuse us in every way he possibly could. He would say sorry at the end of the day to keep up appearances, but then the cycle would repeat every single day… And frankly – that is NOT love!!!
Good point they might believe that they love you. Perhaps its the best they have ever given. But truthfully I don’t think they think too far forwards or back, right now is all that seems to count where they are right now. I am sure that they get highs and endorphine rushes from the games that they play with people and the control that they hold over other peoples lives.
I have seen many responses like this – about the games they play, the rushes they get from it… I know that they are capable of many terrible, terrible deeds. I know that many “normal” people have even described them as “evil”. Don’t take what I’m about to say the wrong way, perhaps I’m reading into a lot of these views entirely wrong. But I posit that the sociopath is completely oblivious to the fact that there is something wrong with them… It’s not that they just don’t or won’t believe it, they CAN’T. It’s almost as if they have tricked themselves long ago that nothing is wrong with them… Like they’re hiding from themselves.
Yes of course they have an inflated sense of ego. Yes of course they lie. But I have seen and studied my sociopath with great compassion and great detail. I have even seen him be happy from making me happy. He will only go so far to do this, he will not sacrifice much, if anything at all, but I can guarantee that it was NOT always just a ploy to keep me in the dark to continue to supply him. Being with me made him genuinely happy at times, even if I wasn’t paying attention to HIM. Usually, yes, I had to. But I mean that at times, he would be watching me do something mundane, or being silly… and it would give him great joy to see me happy, or laugh at my antics – ALMOST like he was normal.
This is why it confused me so greatly for so long and I had a hard time leaving. It’s as if he can’t control it. And yes, after having done much research, he is sociopathic – not just narcissistic, of this I am certain. He displays all the symptoms and characteristics – well beyond what I will go into detail here…
I have even seen him exert self-control, but certainly not with everything, and certainly not often – rarely. What he can get away with, or what he rationalizes to be ok and normal behavior for adults in his mind (like risky sex, risky driving, etc), he does these in as controlled environments as possible… but only at times, and certainly not all the time. I’ve even seen him exert self-control at times he didn’t want to (almost never), but ONLY if he was ABLE to – when he wasn’t too overwhelmed, for example. Logic and rationalization, like all sociopaths, he has this as well… but this will totally disappear when the emotional tantrums come out, and then he literally loses ALL control.
We all know that socios can feel anger – they can feel resentment. So saying they can’t feel at all would be wrong. Even recent developments show that people with Anti-social Personality Disorder are actually capable of empathy… what we have always known to be the definition of sociopathy is currently being challenged. It stands to reason that if they can feel at all, they should be able to feel a whole spectrum of emotions. Albeit, they tend to stay to the negative, violent and resentful side of things.
From what I have seen, the issue lies in the control of this, and the reactions they have. They certainly do not react the same way to stimuli, and they do not have the same level of control that others do… I don’t think he even realizes he lies as much as he does. His lies, his reactions, his lack of control – it does not always come from a conscious place in his mind… making it even more dangerous in my opinion than one who is consciously controlling these behaviors. Don’t get me wrong, yes, he has and does consciously lie – but it’s like he’s rationalized it first, because of “X”, “Y”, or “Z”… not just out of some evil need to be deceitful. Many of us get so offended by what is done to us, I think its hard to see the WHYs behind their behavior… for most of us, we just know that we’ve been slighted.
My sociopath has both genetic history of mental illness in his family (lots of examples, actually) and he definitely was abused growing up – abandoned by his mother, and abused by his father and others… He truly wants a happy life. He truly wants good things – but it’s like he CAN’T do it. I have seen him try with great effort – but its as if he’s struggling to understand some sort of equation which is WELL beyond his level of comprehension. There must be some sort of stunting going on. Its like you can see the cog wheels turn, get stuck, and then Mr Hyde comes out to take over… Because he has no idea, or because he has convinced himself otherwise, he will never seek help. Because he rationalizes everything, he truly believes he is normal.
Perhaps he has tricked himself into a false sense of security out of some survival instinct; from a young age, he used to have to manipulate people in order to get what he needed when he was young due to the environment and situation he was in with the abuse. The authority in his life was so selfish, he had to take what he needed in order to survive, and he cared for his younger brother through these means as well. He is not incapable of caring, but now that he’s older and no longer in that situation, his thought processes and behaviors definitely work against him.
I did not know he was sociopathic, and for a long time, I would merely treat the symptoms of what came out. I have seen him change – not just in mirroring me, not just in learning so he could keep up with the times… he is incapable of certain levels of comprehension, despite the fact that he is an otherwise intelligent person. But when it comes to relationships, when it comes to relating with others, getting what he needs, the why and the how… he still rationalizes it’s ok to do these things, almost like he’s in battle – almost like his life is a war zone. To some degree, he has gotten better… but not enough, and he is still abusive. No one can live their life with a partner that they have to treat like a 2 year old. However, I believe with some sort of assistance, he can improve where one day, he may no longer abuse to the degree he does today… I will not however, stick around to find this out.
I do believe that these people can be helped, based on what I have tried, and what I have seen. But how, how long it would take, and how effective it would be – I cannot say. But I have seen him in many different situations. I have seen him in many different ways, and I have studied him and set up controls that he knew nothing about. I am convinced, but I would never suggest or recommend that anyone try to help these people on their own. And I certainly left – there was no possible way I could help him in that capacity as he needed to be totally domineering and controlling, which wouldn’t even allow me the resources to even TRY to care for him. Also, as socios greatly respond to negativity, when they do something that normal people perceive to be wrong, especially when you are in a romantic relationship with someone, of course we are going to react negatively. I don’t know many people at all that would be able to consistently put up with their constant tirades and abuse, and the outrageous and ridiculous control, so that you COULD even help them. It is literally like having to take care of a 2 year old wielding a machine gun or a machete without making one wrong move – or you’re dead. I don’t know anyone that can do that. Furthermore, enabling merely delays the tantrums, delays the outbursts. Nothing in life is perfect, so there will be things that happen to them that are totally out of your control, no matter how hard you try. And since you’re the punching bag they keep around, well,. how can you NOT respond to that?
I have read much from socios on the internet – the ones that say they know they have this disorder… Some may not truly feel or associate the way normal people do, but some do still try to understand their illness and then act accordingly so they are at least functional within society – and NOT just to dupe people. How much is a want versus a need to function, I’m not sure. But it is possible, albeit difficult and not necessarily controllable.
I have seen my socio take delight in hurting others – like many of them do. I have seen this many times. I can say without hesitation, it comes from some deep seeded hurt he has felt, that he has always felt, that he always WILL feel. Some sort of injustice he lives with constantly. It’s almost as if when he does this, he feels better – almost like he’s getting revenge on a bully. Obviously, I am not his bully. I’m not the one that hurt him so long ago. But I’ve seen that it doesn’t matter who he hurts – he always perceives that he is right to do this because of some invisible pain – and it will give him satisfaction. I do not believe this is “evil”. Yes, it is totally wrong. But remember, he CAN’T differentiate. I believe at times, he has felt bad afterwards, but not always. And his feelings will literally change towards his actions in the past, based on his mood, and how he presently rationalizes it. No matter how bad he feels or doesn’t feel about it, he simply can’t control not doing it again – he CANNOT curb the behavior. At times, even “normal” people will take delight in this; imagine you are a child and the class bully has been picking on you for years – beating you up all the time. Let’s say finally one day, you’re able to defend yourself against them, or you learn self-defense and take them down – however the scenario would go. Many people would feel good about this – like finally getting revenge on the guy, you know? The sociopath does this constantly. They do enact this sort of vengeance over and over and over… there is no rhyme or reason for it either, and it could be for something as small as overcooking a meal. Their version of revenge is TOTALLY unreasonable, their rationalizations for it go way beyond what a reasonable person would say or do, but that’s it, and they don’t care whom they enact it upon – so long as it gets out of them.
Perhaps advancements will come, I hope that they will. Compassion can be very difficult for someone we perceive to be so evil. But I truly believe this is an illness, one they may not even be aware of. Can you imagine walking around sick, wanting something better for yourself, but never truly understanding that you’re even sick? And then feeling so much hatred and resentment for the whole world because of it? So you try to fit in, you mimic people’s behavior, you learn their buttons. Even a hungry man might steal food. Historically, we used to cut those peoples’ hands off.
We’ve already proven that treating abuse like we treat diseases drastically reduces the number of assaults and improves lives – even the CDC knows this. But with sociopathy, we “norms” get so upset because of what gets done to us, because of the injustice, because of the way they treat us – we take it personally, and I don’t think we should. We cannot control them. We cannot necessarily help them the way that they need it. But I know they are ill, they are not evil, and some of them are crying out for help. Until our societal norms change and we have compassion for all peoples, for all creeds and walks of life and we stop being so hard on everything and everyone, these people will never get help, and we will continue to be abused. It’s easy enough to see them in Western society… now imagine Eastern society. Think about other religions… even terrorists. Do they not also exhibit the same symptoms?
I posit that we are creating more and more sociopaths as time goes on… and in turn, the ‘norms’ are becoming more and more resentful for what is done to them. Just as we have learned that crime can be reduced – we end up creating more criminals based on economic hardship, we are doing the same thing emotionally to these people; some people feel they have no other choice BUT to be deviants based on the way the world is set up, what they have learned, and their resources at hand. I believe socios really aren’t that different – the medium and execution is what is different. We are waging a war against each other… against the sick – nurture OR nature.
I hope that everyone that comes to these pages understand, have compassion, but then get safe. You CANNOT help ANYONE that does not want to help themselves.. and these people in almost all cases do not want help, because they don’t even think anything is wrong – this is “normal” for them. If you cannot disarm a bomb, you go a safe distance, and tell the bomb squad. Do not try to help them on your own – they will only manipulate you further, and you will become something yourself you thought wasn’t possible. But if we just look the other way, run away, and say “what an a$$hole”, no one will ever get better.
Grace this is a brilliant comment would you mind if I posted as a post and credited you as author you have written my thoughts and observations articulated it so well. I agree with what you say. They also feel jealousy as well as anger. I didn’t witness resentment too much. I felt that this was because they live In the ‘now’ they don’t tend to hold grudges like normal people as they just ‘move on’. I also think you are right that it’s not evil, it’s just the way that their mind works. They often work against themselves. It’s not true that they can’t see it. I think they can. They just rarely admit it. But I do agree they often cannot help it. It’s like an explosion thats waiting to go off the ticking time bomb, not if, but when. I also experienced joy from my joy BUT ONLY if nobody else was involved In that joy, if there was anyone else involved in the happiness…. It was perceived as a threat.
Thank you for your well thought out comment. People with aspd do have empathy. They are one end of the spectrum. The naughty people often in trouble. At the other end of the spectrum is psychopaths who have no empathy. There is nothing inside.
Please go ahead positivagirl, anything we can contribute to further understanding for others… it would be a pleasure. I’m sure we could all write for days upon days of all the symptoms, the reasons why… And yes, jealousy – lots and lots of jealousy!
I can attest that at least my socio did exhibit a lot of resentment. While he was abusing me for example, he was remembering past abuse – he would even talk about it. But I found with him, what he did or said to get what he needed in the here and now would change, depending on how he needed the situation to go – nothing was static, except he was always right, blamed everyone else, and he felt so much pain. All other reasons could be fleeting, just however he so chose to rationalize his actions to get what he needed or wanted.
Bluegal I am very familiar with this point of view, it is not my place to say it is wrong. I am merely commenting on what I have been through, what I have observed, what has worked and what hasn’t.
I have been with 2 of them now – the second one came in and rescued me from the first – I was at a very vulnerable place in my life and he was very good at what he did. The perfect hunting ground, so to speak. To be honest, both of them were very convincing, but the second one, well, he had everyone fooled. His own family had no idea, and when I reached out for help, they threatened me with slander. I began to become VERY afraid when he started speaking about how he wanted to go into politics.
Of course he is intelligent. The only way to truly observe these people is to not let them know what you are doing – it’s the only way you can have somewhat of a control to test anything out. The second they believe they are being watched, their walls go up even higher. These people are on high alert most of the time – but even they need periods of relaxation and rest, and they will let their guards down eventually.
positivagirl you are absolutely right. They work against themselves. There were times when his ego was so inflated, he never suspected that I suspected there was something wrong, he never thought he’d be caught… he thought he was too smart, and I was too stupid. It was when he would let his guard down I was able to truly look at who he was, his motivations, etc.
The most interesting thing I have found is that some part of himself almost knows there’s something wrong – he’s found ways to cope with it – but he has no idea why, or what it is. This is how I truly believe there can be hope for them. He may not know why he does it, and it might be necessity driven more than anything, but he tries. He tries really hard to control himself, and for that, he at least deserves some credit.
Of course, everyone has different levels, everyone of us are on different spectrums, and has different understandings of it (or a lack thereof). In my socios case, it was as if he had discovered long ago that he had to do things certain ways so he could go forward in life AT ALL. While he might have been aware to a degree – he was not aware fully. He would be aware he was losing his temper – he understood right from wrong simply enough, but he had a very hard time understanding why he lost his temper, or that he SHOULDN’T have lost his temper for such small reasons. From this, it is hard for me to say he was ‘fully aware’ of what he was doing… It’s why I say that he was hiding from himself. He wears a mask for others, but he doesn’t understand he also wears a mask from himself 😦
He was often fond of saying “I can’t fail… I’m not allowed to fail”. He had many maxims he would use to get through the day, get through tricky periods, or keep me with him – trusting him… and once again, I am not convinced it was always just out of his selfish needs… of course he wanted me with him, but he knew that unless I approached it a certain way, I wouldn’t be happy either… and he wanted me to be happy. He knew what I needed from a relationship to be happy… but he couldn’t give it to me himself, so he tried to convince me to give it to myself… if that makes sense. Once again, the motivation could have been more shallow – “make her happy so she will make me happy”. Rarely, did he ever show sacrifice in order to make me happy… but he did from time to time, with small things. He was mindful of me, while he may not have been capable of doing many big things, he did little things that were of no advantage to himself – just because he could. He did reciprocate what he could, especially when he was “normal”. I did see it as a sign that there was hope.
Of course, all the other awful domineering and controlling behavior would come out, but there were times he was genuine, and I could tell he did care about me and the way I felt. But in order for us to be together, I had to view it the same way he did – this much, he at least understood.
My heart goes out to you all, and to all of the sick people out there, and the loved ones it affects. I remind myself often that our pain can be eventually healed when we walk away, theirs never will be. This illness is so difficult to deal with for everyone. There is no correct treatment, and it might never work, depending on how ‘bad’ they are. I think of people selling their homes to pay for cancer treatments, the extra sacrifice and work that loved ones will do to help the ones they love that are sick. But with this illness, with the ultimate control socios attempt and typically have, how could anyone ever help them? And because it is emotional, and irrational, how can one keep their sanity and emotions in check when their partner is treating them like this? I simply cannot demonize these men. I know a lot of what we went through was fake, and in that I also find solace knowing I don’t have to be angry, either.
I’m sorry but its been said the cluster B people are very “aware” of what they’re doing. That’s why they can only be classified as “disordered” and not mentally ill, because they are aware. To be deemed mentally ill, you can not be of sound mind, and you’re not aware of your actions. Cluster B people are very aware of their actions they just do not care, because they are not neurologically wired for empathy. As far as them “feeling” happy, about anything, those emotions they experience are only fleeting and not stable. What they display as”happy” when they observe us doing something, is only them observing your movements. All they are doing is studying you. It’s how they learn to look “normal” by observing normal people and learning how to react. Thats why when they do something hurtful to us they get off on it because they see they’ve triggered a reaction from us. The more we react in anger or fear(emotions they are very familiar with as well as anxiety) the more they keep on us doing that. Those emotions From us they understand because they know what that feels like.
Mental illness comes under lots of categories. Even depression anxiety is a mental illness.
That’s true depression is deemed a mental illness, but we’re not talking about depression, we’re talking about people with personality disorders. And that category according to the DSM-IV manual, those people are not deemed mentally ill because they are aware of their actions. They are considered disordered.
You might be talking about personality disorders blue gal I am talking about mental health. When I risk assessed people in my work, under category ‘mental health’ was anything that was a mental health condition. This is what I mean when discussing mental health. I do believe it is a mental health condition as its in the brain.
In the UK where I am, I could interview diagnosed psychopath … Information would be in mental health category, someone with depression or anxiety this would be in mental health category, as would lots of things, anything that comes under the definition of mental health.
We also cannot forget that every year, we change the definitions in the DSM. The definitions and citeria for Mental Illness and Disordered Personalities are always being challenged with new findings. My socio is DEFINITELY not a psychopath… yet did you not read this article I found on this very website? https://datingasociopath.com/2014/02/16/recent-findings-show-that-psychopaths-do-not-lack-empathy/
So what then do you do, when you can prove that your subject exhibits all the signs of one disorder, does not meet the criteria for the next, but there are some strange occurrences that ‘clasically’ can’t be accounted for? You don’t just discount it.
Let’s not forget that many of the people with these disorders will never actually be diagnosed, let alone studied by “professionals” or by the ones that would at least contribute to and alter these definitions. It stands to reason then, that even the DSM can’t be 100% accurate – otherwise, they wouldn’t change it. Do not have a closed mind by what others have written and what you will read. Nothing in life is certain, nothing and no one is perfect, we are all trying to contribute so that we can have true understanding of the world around us.
I always use real life references to help get a point across; Microsoft Windows might be used everywhere – you have to pay for it, its from a big company, it is still in many cases considered the “industry standard”. Linux is free, open source, and any programmer can change the code, and release a new version – there’s hundreds out there… Android runs on it, for example – a very popular OS today. But Linux in many cases, is a far better OS. I’m not trying to start a debate here about technology. I’m merely saying that just because something is the industry standard, it does not mean it is the best, or perfect, or the only thing that will work… At one time, Apple was practically unheard of (runs off of Unix, which is what Linux runs off of…) Now, look around you today…
Brains work a lot like computers and OS’s. Indexing, for example. My understanding of what my socio is, what makes him tick, his motives etc – I have tried to see it from many different ways – not just from what I think it could be, but I’m learning from HIM. I am listening to HIM and the way HE feels, the way HE acts – not the box I want to put him in.
Our understanding is constantly changing – we need to keep an open mind. Don’t forget, 2000 years ago, people with mental disorders were often thought to be possessed. I’m willing to bet if you had performed an exorcism on one of them, they would stop their previous behavior. Sure, they’d go around with a new obsession and their psychoses would take on new forms… but in a sense, it would have worked, right?
I’ve seen a lot of the tests given for determining these disorders – hell, I went through a couple myself, my socios made sure I went to see psychiatrists (and of course, they always came back negative 🙂 ). In many cases, they’re laughable. You can’t sit with someone in a room for an hour, and ask a few questions and then determine ASPD, or NPD. Furthermore, a lot of the questions are loaded. It took me 1 year to catch on to what he might have been, and another year to verify and be convinced. Some people spend their entire lives with socios without having the faintest idea… Unless you’re actually spending lots of time, listening to them, observing their behavior, looking for the reaction to a specific stimuli, and forgetting about yourself and your pre-conceived notions, you will never see the truth. This can be very hard to do while living with a socio because we react so negatively and take so much personally when they lash out and abuse us. Some professionals still would not know how to spot a socio. Some are experts to be sure, know exactly what to look for, and have no issues calling them out.
I wish you all the best of luck. Keep your eyes, ears and hearts open, and together, lets hope we can stop the abuse – for ourselves, and for those that come after us.
I think I read the article on love fraud but I’m not sure. I still think if they have the ability to turn it on or off, it means they have a choice and obviously, the more vicious choice of the two trumps all. I have no CD for these people as I’ve said before, because they are aware of what they’re doing. They have a choice and chose to hurt us. Plain and simple. Why try and dissect what is the truth?? Occums razor. Keep it simple. It is what it is. And my ex is a psychopath bc he DID try to kill me several times. A few times unbeknownst to me and once by pouring gasoline around the parameter of my home with me and my daughter in it while threatening to light the match. I’m 17 years in almost 2 years out of the R/S. I’ve had lots of time to observe and experience. All Narcs are not psychopaths and sociopaths but all psychopaths/sociopaths are narcs. And just because they change definitions doesn’t make them more of an expert in my experience, including based on their ever changing definitions and trait profiles. Mental health according to the DSM-IV covers an awful lot of ground from character flaws to mentally insane and everything in between. All I’m saying is that cluster B people are aware and therefore according to the ever changing definitions are deemed disordered, by DSM standards, so they’re not off their rocker enough to not know what they’re doing. I just don’t feel sorry for them and probably never will.
No, and why would you blue gal sounds like you went through he’ll, you and your daughter. What I have observed happening is that they do know what they are doing…. Until the time of rage. Then there is total loss of control. Often this is caused by their real or perceived loss of control of you. I also think that there is a difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. With a psychopath … There is nothing there at all. Just empty inside. Dead cold…. Sociopaths are different and aspd different again. These have been my observations, both with diagnosed clients I worked with and those observed personally.
Bluegal, I can certainly understand your pov after that, and no, I wouldn’t expect you to feel bad for them either. I always thanked god mine wasn’t a psychopath – that much I know for sure. As you paint a vivid picture, they are capable of so much more! Frankly, I applaud you for getting out of that nightmare!!! I know a lot of people don’t!
John’s “insight” is mortifying, off the chart frightening/enlightening. His ability to recant his situation “openly” makes me shudder, much like watching a cheetah purr and befriend an antelope before disemboweling it. I hear echoes of my ex narc here, like howling winds from a storm that has passed. And while I know that my situation was never as potently dangerous as this one clearly is, I am never the less doing a major SNOOPY DANCE around my kitchen–I am free! I am free of the drama, twisted thinking, game playing, toxic manipulation of facts, and deviance that had begun to eat away at my healthy being. What had I allowed him to do to my thinking to remotely consider his bizarre behavior acceptable! (It rubs the lotion on its skin, the famous movie line of a psychopath preparing its victim, eeeek!) There is no love here, domination, power playing, the marks of the disease…This re-post is my new year gift from you, thank you for the reminder of what I escaped!! [She continues to Snoopy dance, insert piano music!]
Haha I smiled and laughed at the thought of you doing the snoopy dance Nia.
It is why I don’t mind if sociopaths post here, as they cant help but give themselves away – its all about their ego. If anything its a good reminder of the bullshit you have left behind.